3 valve compensating sousaphone

[bloke]

I'm not really eager to get into such a build, but I currently don't have a sousaphone of my own, I do have a three valve compensating valve section from a Besson (with good valves) that has no tuba awaiting it, and this is something that I've thought about for a while. Have any of you done this? It's going to involve an awful lot of re-tubing in order to accomplish. It's going to have to be the same sort of thing that Yamaha, Besson, and Eastman have done - as far as repurposing top action pistons and porting into front action, and it doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

Let's see how quickly we can get this thread off topic discussing either Ron Paul, alligators, or two-sided tape.

[Richard III]

For my ears, compensating systems are one of the worst things to ever happen to brass. But I'm coming from a euphonium concept in my world. The more weight, the more bracing and the more complex you make a brass instrument, the more harmonics you lose in the sound. Supposedly the trade off is better intonation. I just don't get it. Compensating euphoniums have some of the worst intonation in the world. Just look at Dave Werden's website for the graphed examples of many euphoniums. Does the same thing apply to tubas? What is the tuba world's opinion?

[LeMark]

I don't see how a compensating valve system would effect an instrument unless you are using the compensating valve, otherwise is has zero effect. If the euphonium is out of tune above a low C, then it has to do with the taper of the bugle, and has nothing to do with the valve section. As far as low C and below, are you saying a compensating valve section is more out of tune than a non compensating? I think it would be pretty easy to counter that argument

As far as bloke's idea, I've been a fan of the idea of a 3v compensating Sousa for a long time. As a teacher in Texas, I have band directors coming up to me all the time asking what we can do about the out of tune FFF low B natural whole note the idiot composer wrote into the finale of their precious marching band show

[bloke]

...so I have this .728" Besson 3V comp valveset (missing the top caps, but I betcha a have some laying around), and here's a totally-shot-valve-casings (with one shot piston) old 38K valveset (as I did a 38K-to-20K conversion with that instrument's body years ago) which I could use to continuously stare at to keep the reoriented-to-front-action slides headed in the directions that they would need to be headed.

In order to flippy-floppy the 1st-and-third slides (thinking that I might be able to get away with leaving the #2 slide top-action oriented - as it may not be in the way of anything else), Yamaha sells those handy-dandy variously-shaped knuckles (.728" bore) which feed into the valve casings on their models YBB-201/321.

body...??
I have a couple of 22K bodys/bells, I believe I MIGHT still have a 36K body and bell as well...and I have a bunch of 20/22/14/36/38K main slides, as well as (likely) 5th branches and 4th branches...I would have to look around...

I'm NOT ready to mess with this right now, and my PERSONAL interest level really isn't even quite "there" at this time.

Were I to do this, it probably would not "elegantly" fit within the "circle" of the sousaphone, but (more likely) protrude - as did the slides on the 1920's Buescher sousaphones (when someone ordered a 4-valve, and all they did was paste their 4-valve TUBA valve section onto their sousaphone body).

The "feed in" (to the first valve) is on the wrong side, so it would have to cross under to hook up with a lower mouthpipe. This simply means that length would need to be subtracted from the main slide. I'm wondering (??) if the SHORTER main slide on the short-action versions (with makes up with the extra space those valves and their longer lower mouthpipe consume) might be nearly short enough.

I'm WAY on the front end of (just) the "thinking" part of such a gig...
Again, I'm nowhere near being motivated to engage in this endeavor, but I'm pretty sure I have the crap laying around here to do it...and yes - I always prefer fiberglass for street gigs...no denting/less weight/can be used as a lethal weapon (actually: really) if absolutely necessary, and just as raucous/obnoxious as any.

What is the tuba world's opinion?

I'm only one of - likely - several million in the "tuba world", so someone might appoint themselves in charge of going around and asking the others.
- Tubas and euphoniums all tend to naturally play badly out-of-tune, but not as badly out-of-tune as many singers.
- Tubas and euphoniums all tend to play particularly badly out-of-tune without some sort of way to correct the flawed mathematical ratios which come up with mechanical changes in instrument length.
- Brass instruments' air columns resonate, with the instruments themselves hardly resonating at all, though with thinner/lighter brass instruments, the players can feel the air column vibration more through the brass air column container - a sensation which has little-if-nothing to do with how things sound to the patrons (who are unable to feel those tactile sensations).

bloke "now, having offered an opinion of one in several million"

[catgrowlB]

I think a compensating sousaphone done right would be a good idea. But personally, I'd prefer a trigger on the second slide for low B and E

[Richard III]

I don't see how a compensating valve system would effect an instrument unless you are using the compensating valve, otherwise is has zero effect. If the euphonium is out of tune above a low C, then it has to do with the taper of the bugle, and has nothing to do with the valve section. As far as low C and below, are you saying a compensating valve section is more out of tune than a non compensating? I think it would be pretty easy to counter that argument

As far as bloke's idea, I've been a fan of the idea of a 3v compensating Sousa for a long time. As a teacher in Texas, I have band directors coming up to me all the time asking what we can do about the out of tune FFF low B natural whole note the idiot composer wrote into the finale of their precious marching band show

Compensating euphoniums, in the original goal, was to fix some intonation issues. The reality is that doing that also created other intonation issues. If you were to spend some time on Dave Werden's site and his intonation graphs here:

https://www.dwerden.com/Intonation/index.cfm

Compare the Adams Sonic, a non comp ephonium with any of the other euphoniums, you'll notice the difference.

In my case, I play a non comp and I have much fewer problem notes than others I play with. Most of those players use compensating euphoniums. Where in the range there are issues, yes, only when you are using valves that are compensated. Those are most of the notes usually played.

[LeMark]

I'm very familiar with David's chart, but I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that the reason certain notes (not all by any means) on the sonic are more in tune is because of the lack of compensation. Maybe adams changed the taper on this model?

Intonation is determined by taper, not braces or weight. I play a non compensating euphonium as well, and I like it for many reasons, especially after I added a 5th valve.

[bloke]

Okay King Richard.
That covers alligators, but what about two-sided tape and Ron Paul?

[iiipopes]

I used to play a Besson 3-valve comp BBb tuba. The intonation was spectacular. I even had "the dent" in the knuckle between the 1st and 2nd valves that allowed even the 7th partials to be in tune. I only sold it because it was just completely falling apart with bad solder joints. But as above, I don't know if the taper of a souzy bugle will be compatable and keep everything in tune. The New Standard 17" bell version has a rather quick flare, almost logarithmic in taper, bell that I believe helps the intonation. Also, as posted above, converting the upper 1st valve loop to a moveable slide as Lee Stofer did for me on my 36K, and as others have done on other souzys I have played is a much simpler solution and can help with a shove for flat 2nd space C as well as pull for the lower multi-valve notes, which is all a compensating system does. Yes, it is an interesting intellectual exercise. One last thought: not even Besson used their 3-valve comp system for their souzys.

[arpthark]

Was recently chatting with someone who took an Eastman front-action compensating Eb valveset from a model 853 and pasted it onto a King full-circle Eb sousaphone.

If I wanted a fully chromatic and in-tune Eb sousaphone, I would probably look into something like that, but have it be in a 3+1 setup, somehow.

Having not much to offer besides the above, two-sided tape, and Ron Paul, I think a 3v compensating BBb sousaphone is an awesome idea. My 36K (pictured in my avatar pic) has a top-adjustable first slide, but I'd love for that be a spring-loaded "push in for C in the staff" slide that returns to its original position rather than a hand-operated "push in for C in the staff and pull out for low C and B nat" slide.

[bloke]

I caught them on Facebook either yesterday the day before playing a live gig on that instrument. I don't know that I would have done that to an Eastman unless that valveset was bought from Eastman as a set of parts.

The argument against doing this is that King B flat sousaphones (my favorites) play way better in tune (regular valves) than they should, and I feel like I could get away with not having this system on one of those instruments - and also the fact that these compensating B-flat 3 valve valve sets are larger bore than the standard King bore, unless I find an E flat one - and then I would have to lengthen it all out to B flat besides horizontalizing it.

Unlike E-flat, I don't see any reason for a four-valve compensating valve set on a B-flat sousaphone, because the false tones are so strong.

[iiipopes]

Was recently chatting with someone who took an Eastman front-action compensating Eb valveset from a model 853 and pasted it onto a King full-circle Eb sousaphone.

If I wanted a fully chromatic and in-tune Eb sousaphone, I would probably look into something like that, but have it be in a 3+1 setup, somehow.

Having not much to offer besides the above, two-sided tape, and Ron Paul, I think a 3v compensating BBb sousaphone is an awesome idea. My 36K (pictured in my avatar pic) has a top-adjustable first slide, but I'd love for that be a spring-loaded "push in for C in the staff" slide that returns to its original position rather than a hand-operated "push in for C in the staff and pull out for low C and B nat" slide.

Reynolds had such a mechanism on their tubas in @ 1959 for a couple of years, both push for 2nd space C and pull for 1+3 and other combinations, that returned either way for 1st valve notes.

[iiipopes]

I advocate for 4 valve tubas at the jr high level (not that I have to here in Texas) BUT....

If tuba players did play 3 valve tubas in Middle school and were taught to use the 1st valve slide like trumpet players use their kick slides, then 3 valve sousaphone with a pullable slide or a trigger would be viable.

[TubātōTubŏtō]

I watched all the GOP debates as a 7th grader in 2012, and Ron Paul is still my hero. Hope this helps.

[bloke]

I am continuing (as I have for well over four decades) to free up lime-deposit-frozen and spit-stuck 4th valves on college/university-owned tubas.

I suspect that a significant percentage of government-bought tubas (49 state and the Republic of Texas - more specifically: schools which don't have private teachers going in and teaching individual lessons to nearly every band student) are tubas whereby the 4th valves are never used.

- cheaper to buy
- cheaper to repair
- taxpayers raped less

3-valve compensating systems (and mounted on sousaphones, whereby the VERY low range is accessible with only three valves) offers a wonderful compromise for school bands and taxpayers.

Continuously hearing from a subcontractor at elite schools is not representative of the whole.

As we (who shrug off spectator sports) and who shrug off and even resent deluxe stadia and arenas (particularly for privately-owned professional teams - built at OUR taxpayer expense) should be more sympathetic to those are are not the least bit interested in wind bands, wind band education, or wind band activities being coerced into the purchase of semi-professional grade and professional grade instruments for school children - particularly as they are routinely neglected (as far as daily weekly care) and ridiculously carelessly handled.

bloke "a bigger-picture type of person"

[LeMark]

I remember right before covid walking through a band hall hearing Four Scottish Dances being rehearsed by a JUNIOR HIGH, and it sounded glorious. (if you don't know the piece, look it up) This band was double blocked during the day to allow for extra practice time, and was a midwest honor band.

I remember thinking "God blessed Texas"

So yeah, keep your low standards, I'll keep mine.

[Finetales]

For my ears, compensating systems are one of the worst things to ever happen to brass. But I'm coming from a euphonium concept in my world. The more weight, the more bracing and the more complex you make a brass instrument, the more harmonics you lose in the sound. Supposedly the trade off is better intonation. I just don't get it.

Yes, because the first thing I think of when I play a magic Besson Sovereign euphonium with the most colorful euphonium sound ever is "aww, what a shame, the compensating system took out so many harmonics."

Compensating euphoniums have some of the worst intonation in the world.

Sure, except for compared to literally anything else.

4-valve non-compensating is a horrendous system unless you have multiple slides with easy pulls. And 3 valves don't have anything below low E and have to use 1-3 and 1-2-3 which are hideously, unusably sharp without a trigger.

I've owned 3 compensating euphoniums, tried dozens more, and never once thought "wow this has bad intonation" or "if only the sound had more harmonics."

Compensating euphoniums, in the original goal, was to fix some intonation issues. The reality is that doing that also created other intonation issues.

Everything is a trade-off. There is no perfect system (especially with only 3 or 4 valves), and anyway the tapers are what affect intonation...not how you route (or don't route) your valves. Trombones with no valves still have intonation quirks.

In the French horn world, we have all 3 options with 4 valves: 4-valve single B-flat horn, 4-valve compensating double horn (same system as a euph, just with the 4th valve set the opposite way), and 4-valve full double horn. None of those types are decided between based on intonation problems or "lost harmonics"...they all sound like horns. An Alexander 90 single Bb, Alexander 102ST compensating double, Alexander 103 full double, Alexander 309 compensating triple, and Alexander 303 full triple all sound...like an Alexander horn. None of those sounds "duller" than the others, but they do excel at different things.

The real difference in sound between lighter (single Bb, compensating double), and heavier (full double, triple) horns is the WEIGHT of the sound, which is why orchestral horn players generally prefer full doubles to compensating doubles or single B-flats (though both have been used in the orchestra just fine, along with triples).

Compare the Adams Sonic, a non comp ephonium with any of the other euphoniums, you'll notice the difference.

This is a red herring. The only way this kind of data set would be real evidence of intonation differences between compensating and non-compensating is if you took the exact same make/model, made by robots (and not handmade, to eliminate variation), and built it in different valve configurations. The only telling factor about the Adams Sonic vis-à-vis its valve setup would be as compared to a 4-valve compensating Adams Sonic with the same specs.

[iiipopes]

When Kalison was the cat's meow for CC tubas, I was playing in a regional university community band with my Besson New Standard 3-valve comp. He bragged about its superlative intonation. Being the Missouri boy I am, I challenged him to show me, and I would throw mine in the mix as well with a digital tuner. Long story short, with both of us playing together then with the tuner individually, my intonation without lipping, pulling slides (which you really can't do on an upright 3-valve comp), or otherwise, was better than the Kalison. He was chagrined, to say the least.

[LeMark]

I think the Packer Sousa plays great. They have other compensating instruments, I guess Rob is hesitant to offer a 3VC Sousa in their lineup?

That's too bad

[bloke]

I think the Packer Sousa plays great. They have other compensating instruments, I guess Rob is hesitant to offer a 3VC Sousa in their lineup?

That's too bad

The valve section on the JP is way better built than King as it is a copy, but the intonation of a JP compared to an older King is not quite as good - though it is good. Of course, they cost less than half as much and are sturdier than King as well. I just don't think he wants to step out and be the first person who offers a whatever. That's just not his style.
Before I sold that 1947 King body with the 1960 King bell - whereby the entire instrument weighed 30 lb, I really didn't have much trouble moving pitches (which were played with the wrong length of tubing) in tune. That's what I like about King sousaphones, along with the punch that they offer from the entire instrument being a little bit on the small side.

...and my kids went to a public school that had an only two-year middle school, yet they were playing "grade 6" (whatever the hell that means???... and I think about the most iunmusical thing that can be done with music is to grade it) music in that band. It's not just Texas; it's cherry picking school districts anywhere in the country. You can drive into the adjacent school district (next to where my kids matriculated) and the high school band just sounds like a bunch of noise. It's a combination of parents, teachers, and administrators. It also really doesn't have a whole lot to do with well, and as I keep saying it really doesn't have a whole lot to do with the price of the instruments, as long as they work. Shamelessly plugging JP, I finally bought their cheapest trumpet and their cheapest trombone to sell to a middle school and crossed my fingers. The trumpet is remarkably well put together, and the trombone completely reminds me of a Yamaha beginner trumpet, other than I like the JP case a little bit better. I shouldn't post here how little I charged the school for those two instruments, but probably less than some people spend on a grocery trip, these days.