The various wire stands are just too light/flimsy, and prone to falling over on typical gigs. Cheap wire stands are OK for home practice though...
stands
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Re: stands
I use my nice Manhasset Voyager stand (with extenders and in a carry bag) for outdoor gigs or when needed. I also tend to use plexiglass sheets over my music on outdoor gigs.
The various wire stands are just too light/flimsy, and prone to falling over on typical gigs. Cheap wire stands are OK for home practice though...
The various wire stands are just too light/flimsy, and prone to falling over on typical gigs. Cheap wire stands are OK for home practice though...
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bloke
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Re: stands
Interesting how we view things in opposite ways. Solid desks are very effective sails when the wind kicks up, and - unless there's a drought - I can stab the feet of my wire music stand in the ground. If I'm setting up on concrete outdoors, both heavy and light stands can easily be blown over when significant winds kick up, but - again - a solid desk is going to catch more of the wind.
...but the KM101 isn't just any "wire" stand.
The base adjusts from small enough to fit on a stair step...
...to wider than most any non-collapsible music stand base:
I also like this about steel stands:
I can use small earth magnets to hold my music in place.
Theoretically, I could also use my very large earth magnets to weigh down their legs, but (no) I'm not going to transport those magnets to jobs - for what should be obvious reasons. Anyone who books an outdoor gig with a musical ensemble is taking on the risk of it being a windy day. I'm a sideman, and not a contractor. I can no more assume responsibility for the adverse condition, wind, than I can for rain. (again: Not-a-particularly-strong-wind can blow over any music stand - of any design - that is made, but solid desks are going to catch more wind than frame-desks)
...but the KM101 isn't just any "wire" stand.
The base adjusts from small enough to fit on a stair step...
...to wider than most any non-collapsible music stand base:
I also like this about steel stands:
I can use small earth magnets to hold my music in place.
Theoretically, I could also use my very large earth magnets to weigh down their legs, but (no) I'm not going to transport those magnets to jobs - for what should be obvious reasons. Anyone who books an outdoor gig with a musical ensemble is taking on the risk of it being a windy day. I'm a sideman, and not a contractor. I can no more assume responsibility for the adverse condition, wind, than I can for rain. (again: Not-a-particularly-strong-wind can blow over any music stand - of any design - that is made, but solid desks are going to catch more wind than frame-desks)
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bloke
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Re: stands
I think if I stuck a music stand in the back of my car that was a regular stage stand, I'd probably get the plastic feet that slide over the base (an accessory sold by Manhasset) to try to avoid messing up the upholstery and plastic in my car, but - of course - the desk itself is sort of like a knife edge.
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bloke
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Re: stands
I don't give a damn what children can tear up.
I put stuff back together many days out of every year that children (children ages 10 - 23) tear up.
OF COURSE, children can-and-will tear up everything...They are very similar to pet dogs, in that regard.
I don't tear up any of my stuff, and I doubt that the intended readers of these posts (those who subscribe here) do either.
The next-larger K&M stand (65) - admittedly - is nice - and I was tempted AND BOUGHT ONE a couple of decades ago...but it's just larger enough to have the same problem as every other stand that is NOT a KM101...For portability, it's just too large to be convenient (Yes, I put it out with the merchandise in our former brick-and-mortar and sold it as a "demo".)...and takes up noticeably more (noticeably more than KM101, as the 101 occupies negligible) space in my car - which (as previously posted) is where my collapsible stand is stored.
KM101 - slim, amazing engineering, elegant, reliable, sturdy, affordable, and - EVEN IF THERE'S WIND...(picture in previous post) if there are any cinder blocks or riprap in the vicinity of the venue, the legs are capable of being flattened out to such a low profile - and define such a wide footprint in that position - that (with a cinder block or large rock on each leg) it would be quite a wind indeed that would be able to blow one over.
off-topic...but related in regards to "over-engineered and too bulky":
These main tuning slide trigger contraptions on these various makes of upscale euphoniums are also about three to four times bulkier/heavier than they need to be for what they are required to do. They would be plenty strong with narrower/thinner material throughout, and with more emphasis on SLIDE FIT AND ALIGNMENT than bulk of the pushing mechanism and strength of the spring.
circling back to the point being that:
Things rarely need to be over-engineered, but - simply - engineered. The KM101 is engineered.
I put stuff back together many days out of every year that children (children ages 10 - 23) tear up.
OF COURSE, children can-and-will tear up everything...They are very similar to pet dogs, in that regard.
I don't tear up any of my stuff, and I doubt that the intended readers of these posts (those who subscribe here) do either.
The next-larger K&M stand (65) - admittedly - is nice - and I was tempted AND BOUGHT ONE a couple of decades ago...but it's just larger enough to have the same problem as every other stand that is NOT a KM101...For portability, it's just too large to be convenient (Yes, I put it out with the merchandise in our former brick-and-mortar and sold it as a "demo".)...and takes up noticeably more (noticeably more than KM101, as the 101 occupies negligible) space in my car - which (as previously posted) is where my collapsible stand is stored.
KM101 - slim, amazing engineering, elegant, reliable, sturdy, affordable, and - EVEN IF THERE'S WIND...(picture in previous post) if there are any cinder blocks or riprap in the vicinity of the venue, the legs are capable of being flattened out to such a low profile - and define such a wide footprint in that position - that (with a cinder block or large rock on each leg) it would be quite a wind indeed that would be able to blow one over.
off-topic...but related in regards to "over-engineered and too bulky":
These main tuning slide trigger contraptions on these various makes of upscale euphoniums are also about three to four times bulkier/heavier than they need to be for what they are required to do. They would be plenty strong with narrower/thinner material throughout, and with more emphasis on SLIDE FIT AND ALIGNMENT than bulk of the pushing mechanism and strength of the spring.
circling back to the point being that:
Things rarely need to be over-engineered, but - simply - engineered. The KM101 is engineered.
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bloke
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Re: stands
I tend to suspect they mangled them, due to the very specific order-of-operations (procedure) by they must be folded up (as you yourself know, from folding up a same-procedure model 65).
I routinely do several-hundred-dollars repairs on individual sousaphones, due to the fact that 14-year-old though 18-year-old children cannot seem to remember to loosen the neck tension screws on them (or - perhaps - their lives are just so hectic that they don't have a spare 1.1 second per day to engage in this activity...??)
...receiver braces, lower mouthpipe tubes, and - sometimes - receivers and even main tuning slide braces are trashed (along with even the sousaphone necks) as the sousaphone neck serves as a very efficient lever for trashing all of these things at once, and in an instant. I'm sure the taxpayers are perfectly happy to spend the money (over-and-over) to affect these same repairs, as the young scholars are given a chance to experience handling real instruments.
I routinely do several-hundred-dollars repairs on individual sousaphones, due to the fact that 14-year-old though 18-year-old children cannot seem to remember to loosen the neck tension screws on them (or - perhaps - their lives are just so hectic that they don't have a spare 1.1 second per day to engage in this activity...??)
...receiver braces, lower mouthpipe tubes, and - sometimes - receivers and even main tuning slide braces are trashed (along with even the sousaphone necks) as the sousaphone neck serves as a very efficient lever for trashing all of these things at once, and in an instant. I'm sure the taxpayers are perfectly happy to spend the money (over-and-over) to affect these same repairs, as the young scholars are given a chance to experience handling real instruments.
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bloke
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Re: stands
When you use the term "little ones", I thought you were talking about some children that you were teaching to play instruments. I guess you were referring to music stands that are little - like mine. ...so people who are supposed to be adults - and are supposed to know how to handle things - actually tore them up...peterbas wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 4:33 pm Strange, I thought I was talking about the band where I'm playing in for 30 years and in which we solved most problems by buying a better quality stand. But Ive must be mistaken, silly me.
... and I guess when things are owned collectively, they probably do tend to be mishandled, whereas - when they're owned individually - they are handled properly.
I have people that bring instruments in here all the time that are torn up and blame it on their instruments - telling me that their instruments are "cheap" or "flimsy"... okay. Now I know where you're coming from.
Re: stands
Still using my (2) wire stands for home practice and my Manhasset Voyager for outdoor/needed gigs. The sheet music on the stand act like a sail on light wire stands, making them much more prone to topple over than the heavier, more durable Voyager. And like I've said before, I have extenders ( Stand Outs) and plexiglass sheets over my paper music.
While other people grapple with keeping their light wire stands and sheet music held with clothespins from blowing all over the place in wind, my Voyager stand with plexiglass sheets over sheet music stay put
While other people grapple with keeping their light wire stands and sheet music held with clothespins from blowing all over the place in wind, my Voyager stand with plexiglass sheets over sheet music stay put
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bloke
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Re: stands
' seems to defy physics, but I'm glad it's working out for you.
me:
- stab in the ground or 3 cinder blocks over legs adjusted to nearly flush with the ground
- one piece of music on the stand at a time, held in place (steel-frame stand) with little earth magnets
(If the conductor attempts segues with strong breezes, they can start without me, and I'll enter when my music is in place.)
- 25+ mph wind defeats magnets? Screw it...I'll fake it, and they can print another illegal xerox copy later...but my "wire" stand will still be in place.
heavy on the bottom (or buried in the ground), super light on top. Earth magnets defeat most anything below (well...probably) 15-20 mph winds. Above those wind speeds, all of the solid-desk "Voyagers","Peaks", and Plexiglas sheets will be flying across the landscape (after crashing into trombone slides, tubas, and harmony woodwind instruments) anyway.
Outdoor concerts are always a pretty big risk - re: weather conditions. Again: I don't care about them losing their illegal xeroxes, but my stand is not going to end up flying across the orchestra and wrecking any baritone saxophones...and - interestingly enough - symphony orchestras always supply and heavily duct-tape Manhasset stands to the outdoor stage, so my collapsible stand can stay in the floorboard of the car. One of my freeway philharmonic's set of Manhasset stands has a hole in each of the three feet, and (if it's going to be windy up on the stage) the stage managers run deck screws through those holes into the stage floor (genius, but they're protecting $40,000 basses and $100,000 cellos, so it's pretty important that stands don't start flying around).
me:
- stab in the ground or 3 cinder blocks over legs adjusted to nearly flush with the ground
- one piece of music on the stand at a time, held in place (steel-frame stand) with little earth magnets
(If the conductor attempts segues with strong breezes, they can start without me, and I'll enter when my music is in place.)
- 25+ mph wind defeats magnets? Screw it...I'll fake it, and they can print another illegal xerox copy later...but my "wire" stand will still be in place.
heavy on the bottom (or buried in the ground), super light on top. Earth magnets defeat most anything below (well...probably) 15-20 mph winds. Above those wind speeds, all of the solid-desk "Voyagers","Peaks", and Plexiglas sheets will be flying across the landscape (after crashing into trombone slides, tubas, and harmony woodwind instruments) anyway.
Outdoor concerts are always a pretty big risk - re: weather conditions. Again: I don't care about them losing their illegal xeroxes, but my stand is not going to end up flying across the orchestra and wrecking any baritone saxophones...and - interestingly enough - symphony orchestras always supply and heavily duct-tape Manhasset stands to the outdoor stage, so my collapsible stand can stay in the floorboard of the car. One of my freeway philharmonic's set of Manhasset stands has a hole in each of the three feet, and (if it's going to be windy up on the stage) the stage managers run deck screws through those holes into the stage floor (genius, but they're protecting $40,000 basses and $100,000 cellos, so it's pretty important that stands don't start flying around).
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peterbas
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Re: stands
...
Last edited by peterbas on Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Colby Fahrenbacher (Thu Sep 19, 2024 7:54 pm)
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bloke
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Re: stands
Yeah I prefer $20 bucks over $200 bucks and another $400 or $600 bucks for a tablet.
One of my freeway philharmonics is trying to coerce everyone into using tablets. Not only would I have to load that sH!t (the illegally copied music) onto my own tablet without being reimbursed for the time required to do that, but I would have to buy a tablet... as well as adding a little bit on to my electrical bill every month to keep it charged... and generating extra electricity puts carbon into the atmosphere... and we certainly can't have that, because carbon in the atmosphere encourages plants to grow. They want me to use a tablet, so where's the furnished tablet? (I have played shows before where tablets were used, and the shows furnished the tablets.) The answer is no, and - if they ask again - it's a louder no.
...They did just gave me a raise, which is about 1/5 of the amount of the inflation over the past three and a half years - since Inauguration Day... I need the 20%-of-inflation raise to buy the poor-people food that I'm buying at the grocery store at 100% higher prices these days, and not to buy a tablet for their convenience...
... They already are not renting my tubas from me, whenever they need me to be playing them.
... I've lost track of who's trolling whom.
One of my freeway philharmonics is trying to coerce everyone into using tablets. Not only would I have to load that sH!t (the illegally copied music) onto my own tablet without being reimbursed for the time required to do that, but I would have to buy a tablet... as well as adding a little bit on to my electrical bill every month to keep it charged... and generating extra electricity puts carbon into the atmosphere... and we certainly can't have that, because carbon in the atmosphere encourages plants to grow. They want me to use a tablet, so where's the furnished tablet? (I have played shows before where tablets were used, and the shows furnished the tablets.) The answer is no, and - if they ask again - it's a louder no.
...They did just gave me a raise, which is about 1/5 of the amount of the inflation over the past three and a half years - since Inauguration Day... I need the 20%-of-inflation raise to buy the poor-people food that I'm buying at the grocery store at 100% higher prices these days, and not to buy a tablet for their convenience...
... They already are not renting my tubas from me, whenever they need me to be playing them.
... I've lost track of who's trolling whom.
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Colby Fahrenbacher
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Re: stands
I honestly have no idea how to process this random aside. Is this serious? Is this sarcasm? Is this relevant? Is this a legitimate argument against whatever you are disagreeing with?bloke wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2024 4:42 pm ... and generating extra electricity puts carbon into the atmosphere... and we certainly can't have that, because carbon in the atmosphere encourages plants to grow.
Former Tubist, USAF Bands
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bloke
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Re: stands
Trolling (per often), and caught you again. I might suggest that you could benefit from learning how to not take the bait every single time. (That's how small catfish end up becoming really large catfish.)Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:07 pmI honestly have no idea how to process this random aside. Is this serious? Is this sarcasm? Is this relevant? Is this a legitimate argument against whatever you are disagreeing with?bloke wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2024 4:42 pm ... and generating extra electricity puts carbon into the atmosphere... and we certainly can't have that, because carbon in the atmosphere encourages plants to grow.
I wager that at least 95% of the people who subscribe here knew from when I bumped this thread (starting yesterday or the day before) that I was obviously trolling. Seriously, why should I give a crap what kind of music stands people use? I was only reeling in a couple of people, so I started throwing in everything including the kitchen sink (including making fun of the wamists) to see if I could catch another or two.
Don't let me always have to explain my jokes or post
NOTE: THIS IS A TROLL !
whenever I go fishing.
You're spoiling a whole bunch of people's fun.
Re: stands
Yeah, cinder blocks are common and practical on gigsbloke wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:44 pm
me:
- stab in the ground or 3 cinder blocks over legs adjusted to nearly flush with the ground
bloke wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:44 pm ' seems to defy physics, but I'm glad it's working out for you.
Above those wind speeds, all of the solid-desk "Voyagers","Peaks", and Plexiglas sheets will be flying across the landscape (after crashing into trombone slides, tubas, and harmony woodwind instruments)
Re: stands
I dunno . . . I'f I knew it would keep my stand from blowing over and losing my music mid performance, I'd take/use 'em.
We play tubas for god's sake! It's not like it adds much more volume or weight . . .
We play tubas for god's sake! It's not like it adds much more volume or weight . . .
1977(ish) Mira"fone" 186
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bloke
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Re: stands
I've already admitted that I'm trolling you guys (of course, I don't care a whit what stands other people use, but it's amusing to see how worked up people get over nothing - you know: like football game outcomes, which crappy beer they prefer, and other stuff of no consequence), but - at breezy quintet gigs (these are orchestras' brass quintets) the orchestra's stage manager shows up with five (regular Manhasset) stands, five chairs, and a bunch of those half-thickness cinder blocks. yes. They have them, and they show up with them...and I'm referring to two different orchestras.
more truth: Two or three weeks ago (hottest day of the year - c. 98 degrees, but it was a couple hours later - down to 93 degrees) they didn't bring the cinder blocks (no breeze) but they DID bring a nice 36-inch fan and an extension cord (to CREATE a little breeze)...and they set us up in the shade. It was really nice of them to schlep that fan to the venue.
more truth: Two or three weeks ago (hottest day of the year - c. 98 degrees, but it was a couple hours later - down to 93 degrees) they didn't bring the cinder blocks (no breeze) but they DID bring a nice 36-inch fan and an extension cord (to CREATE a little breeze)...and they set us up in the shade. It was really nice of them to schlep that fan to the venue.