Holton 345 & 350 Project

[Sousaswag]

Video link above. I am no videographer, and I ramble a bit, but I think my points make sense.

Here are some images of other 345's and valvesets I stole from Tubenet and the internet.

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This is a valveset rebuilt by Mr. Oberloh YEARS ago. I think the porting looks identical on this one to what I have.

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I'm not entirely sure who's this is (was). Maybe Tim's? That 3rd valve slide crook looks wider than any 340 I've seen, including mine. This likely gets that top tube out of the way for 4th.

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I think this is the same tuba, just with an easy view of 4th.

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This one was done by Beeman Brass Works. I saw it on Facebook. VERY pretty. I think I'd like mine to have this brushed finish! A little bit unconventional 3rd slide layout, but the porting looks pretty much identical. I wonder if his 3rd slide was an attempt to solve the issue without changing crooks.

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Side view. Those 3rd and 4th tubes are VERY close. He probably added that diagonal tube there to fix the space issue as I alluded to above.

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Bottom view. VERY close to what I have. He uses a straight tube to mount the main slide to the valves rather than the weird bent one Holton uses on some of these and most 340's.

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Lastly, the top view. Very similar porting here to mine, as well. I am missing some of those elbows that come out of the valves, but that should be easy enough to source or make.

I have more, but these look the most similar to my valveset's porting. Again, with the lack of consistency of these things, no two are the exact same. I've seen some with valves 2, 3, and 4 all in line with one another, but others, like mine, have 4 canting in towards the player, sort of like the Hirsbrunner piston block. There is absolutely ZERO continuity in Holton 345's, and that is what makes them, I think, so hard to make look "right."

Keith and I had THREE Holton 340 valve blocks in the same place, and all three of them had different 3rd tuning slide crooks. Some were bent so tight like mine, while others are wider, leading me to believe they may have been meant for a 345, but that's all the factory had laying around, so that's what they used.

Anyway, I'll get it figured out. I'm not too too worried about the valve circuits, as Keith has built plenty of these before, and he'll know what it needs when the time comes. I will want to use as many of my own parts as possible.

David

[MiBrassFS]

Thank you very much! The picture that looks square on the block helped things make sense.

The inconsistency is a bit of the charm of these… maybe? I know they were built in lots once they had enough orders for them. Who built them varied from lot to lot and I think that drove much of the variation/inconsistency.

What an odd time for tubas that these were even made. The Conn 2xJ’s were pretty consistent. The Martins had variation, but that variation seems to have been done with more “intention.” These? All over the map! Still, delightful that they exist.

[Sousaswag]

My pistons and casings are off to Mr. Metzler for a professional opinion/rebuild. I’ll update this thread accordingly when I hear back.

The 350 body will also be coming together soonish. Once Keith is finished with my 2165 and I get all the finishing touches put on it, the 350 can be put together and dents removed, at which point, this project will be at a stand still until I get the valves sorted.

[Sousaswag]

Great news. I just heard back from Mark, who is willing to rebuild the valves. There is a pinhole in the 4th, but he said everything else looks okay, and they’re worth the effort. Yay!

So, here’s my plan:

1) Valve rebuild/350 body assembly/dent work

2) 340 valves swapped to 350 body, when #1 is done

3) 340 body taken completely apart, de-dented, lacquer stripped, and reassembled

4) 345 valve slides built, aligned, and soldered to the valveset

5) 345 final assembly/play test

[Sousaswag]

Another thought has crossed my mind.

Since this valveset is custom made, the bore is straight .750” tubing. Valves 1, 2, and 3 will be fine as far as slide layout.

However, the 4th valve may pose an issue. I’ve thought about where I could get the elbow coming out of that valve, to be as Holton-like as possible, but I don’t know of many makes that offer 4th valve tubing that is .750” bore.

Where do you source your tubing? What would you do in regard to routing that 4th slide? I thought about trying to get 4th tubing from Eastman, maybe, but it occurred to me that their 4th bore is graduated up to .787”, like the York it copies, right?

I’d like this to be as “stock” as possible. That may mean finding a different 3rd upper and lower crook, again, Eastman may be the way to go for York-like 3rd tubing and crooks, and I’d like a HB or York style 4th slide, but the catch is that it needs to be .750” bore.

What would you do, and where would you get your tubing?

[bloke]

I would build the fourth circuit at .750" and expect it to play with more security (perhaps even louder and clearer) vs. the larger bore circuit found on oem Holtons.

[Sousaswag]

That’s what I’m thinking. I wasn’t sure if oem 345’s had that graduated bore there. Thanks!

I’m a long way out from going down this hole, but I’m sure Keith can get it figured out. We’ve got several valvesets to look at that aren’t attached to any tubas, including an oem BB-345 set.

I think, as things progress, this tuba may need replacement upper, maybe lower, 3rd crooks. Spacially, I cannot see in my brain how we’d route the 4th slide with the really tight bend upper 3rd tube in the way.

[Sousaswag]

I thought I'd have nothing more to update for a little while.

That changed. HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Okay, so, I've been studying A LOT of Holton 345 images here, on Google, and on Facebook. What I've come to find out is that the 3rd slides on 340's are DIFFERENT than on 345's, due to that 4th piston being there.

If you remember, I was struggling to figure out how that 4th slide was going to be routed if I kept that very tight bend 3rd tuning slide.

Digging through my parts again, I found a crook (stuck to one slide tube) that is indeed wider than the crook I was originally thinking I'd need to use (same as on my own 340).

I don't have the pistons here to fit things together, but I do believe that this wider crook will give me just enough room to fit that inner 4th slide UNDERNEATH the upper 3rd. Eureka!

Then, I think I can keep that old 3rd crook, and maybe build the 4th slide around that one, ala Nirschl or Hirsbrunner 4th slides.

What I AM still missing, though, is a lower 4th crook, although the extra #1 slide may work in that regard, depending on how those tubes line up, and then the mess of 4th tubing that loops over the valves to the other side.

Additionally, I'm missing that 90 degree bend (elbow?) that comes out of the lower 3rd slide port to connect to the lower slide. I don't know if those are easy to make, or source, so I still need to figure that out.

That said, I am happy that I've made this little discovery. Hopefully when this all goes together, my thinking will be on the right track.

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Compare those two crooks for 3 and 4. I suspect that wider one is meant to be 3 (in the previous owner's plans) and that the tighter bend which I've labeled 4, is meant to be 4.

[Sousaswag]

Here’s an update on the 345 valves from Mark. This is going way quicker than I expected. Exciting stuff!

I have the first three pistons nickel plated and honed. The first three casings are honed. These three pistons are ready to be lapped in.

The fourth piston needed additional copper build up. The reason for this is that the fourth casing was (at some point in its life) reamed out, so its a larger inside diameter than the first three. In any case, after the two rounds of copper plate, I honed the fourth piston yesterday and dropped it off at the plater this morning for the final nickel plate. Once I get it back, I should be able to wrap this up. Probably be a couple weeks, depending on the plater.

[bloke]

Let's see if we can get @tubaing to post some shots of key junctures on his 345 that reveal bracing locations, lengths and spacings of tubing to each other, as well as spacing/positioning of the valve section to the body.

When he handed his to me, it was quite distressed indeed, bracing was really goofy, the shape was really goofy, proportions were really goofy and it was goofy. I didn't try to redesign the instrument, but I just did my best to put it back together - once everything was straightened out - the most like it seemed logical that it would ideally be assembled by someone paying attention. Nothing is different from factory parts, there are no extra braces from factory braces, nothing. I think I did a good enough job at that so as pictures that he might show you could be instructive.

(...okay, finger buttons are professional Yamaha, and water keys are all replaced with brass European-made ones which are the same shape as those seen on B&S instruments - except they are brass and not nickel. There was only one original Holton water key on that instrument, it was in bad shape, and those water keys were unartfully crappy anyway.)... but this has nothing to do with instrument proportions, distances, and angles of assembly.

(Pretty soon, I'll be sticking another one back together. It's been waiting for me to do that for several months, but I had to repair hundreds of smashed up middle school, high school, and university instruments, and then spend additional time coaxing them all into paying me.)

[Sousaswag]

That’s actually a great idea. I could get measurements of the 3rd slide crook to see if what I have is what I think it is.

[Sousaswag]

My valves are all done. Way quicker than expected.

Total cost was about what I expected as well. If you would really like to know that information, send me a PM.

This type of work is something only a few people do, so to me, pay what it costs, right? If you’ve got a valve block that isn’t made anymore, this is really your only option apart from getting lucky and finding another one.

[Sousaswag]

Exciting news! The valves are back! And boy, do they look good. I am very happy and pleased with Mr. Metzler's work. Zero side play, ports line up, he put guides in, all the things.

He mentioned that he lapped them a little bit, and they're fit very snug. That is true. They move. That's about it. He suggested I have the final lapping done when the valveset is built and on the horn. Makes sense to me.

Also, since these are all what seems to be oem Holton, Yamaha buttons fit. I scrounged 3 off a YEP-201 Euphonium just to see if they fit, and they do. I'd like to have buttons made for these valves, but it is good to know the Yamaha buttons work.

Some photos, plus a little bonus at the end...

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Ain't that valve pretty?

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Remember how I said I have 3 main tuning slides? I do. So, I stuck the shortest one into the tuba (it's not aligned well at ALL, and the crook is all banged up) but, it seems to have brought that flat F up to pitch. It may not look like it, but all 3 tuning slides have different lengths on the inner legs. The upper two are *really* close, but not exactly the same. Typical Holton

I left the tuba upstairs so it's around room temperature, and spent about an hour playing random stuff. Usually, I practice in my basement and it's really cold down there, so it's hard to test pitch when you're trying to get the horn warm.

That F used to be about 10 or 12 cents flat, but now it's right on all the way in, along with the Bb's above and below being more or less on the money. Voodoo? Maybe. I'll keep spending time with it and report back. The first valve slide is still too long. First valve C is still about 20ish cents flat. I'll make that correction on both the 3 valve and 4 valve sets.

[bloke]

Sometimes - and this is not uncommon - the third partial F on those instruments is actually not far off from being in tune with the B-flat and D above that F, whereas the low B-flat below the staff - along with the F up in the staff - are quite a bit sharper than those other three open pitches...

So there are basically two pitch levels with the open pitches: low B flat and F in the staff are at one pitch level, and the adjacent F, B-flat, and D are at a lower pitch level...

...It's sort of a different way of looking at the same issue.

[Sousaswag]

Hi all,

I'm almost ready to enter "Stage 2" of this massive project. Stage 2 is pretty much getting this bell front put together and playable. Yesterday, Keith sent over some photos of my 350 body all soldered together. What a change from the big pile of parts I gave him. As soon as solder is cleaned up, I'll be bringing my 340 over to his place for the valve transplant.

As a reminder, the (VERY NICE) 3 piston set from this old 340 will simply be swapped to the bell-front body. We're also probably going to chop about 2" off the first slide, since 2nd space C, 2nd line B, and first line G are all way flat all in. I'm a full grown adult who can yank tuning slides out to compensate for low C and B.

I specified minimal dent work on this 350 model. He just ran the dent balls through it, which is fine for what this tuba is. I'll be stripping what's left of the lacquer off this tuba myself to get everything uniform. I'll leave the valveset as-is, since it still looks pretty great.

Stage 3 of this project will be pulling apart the 340 body, stripping the lacquer, and doing near-complete dent removal. That includes the bottom bow guard. I know some here would rather that lacquer be left on it, but I'd rather have it raw brass since there's going to be a bunch of solder work and, well, dent work going into this. The idea is to make it look like my 2165 does, and let it get really dark.

Stage 4, finally, will be blueprinting that 4v set I had rebuilt, and getting it put together and mounted to the horn. Keith already has the crooks that I don't have, which is AWESOME, and a 345 CC valveset that he slicked out as a reference for everything.

Some 350 eye candy:

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Front-on view of the 350. Really bad lacquer that I'll leave as-is until I can get it outside to strip it off. I'll likely do what Blake did to that little Eb he posted about recently.

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It needed a bell screw, so Keith made one from scratch. Awesome!

And some reminders of the 340's condition:

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Really, really nice valveset

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With really, really nice valves!

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Inner bow dents - Really not too bad, but worth getting out if I'm taking it this far. Resoldering everything won't hurt it, either.

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Top bow dents

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Bottom bow/ferrule punched in - This has always bothered me.

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Dents in the bow guard - This has also always bothered me. I HATE bow guard dents. Would you recommend I just replace that guard wire? Where do y'all source that stuff?

[Tubajug]

Awesome! It's fun to see progress on projects!

[Sousaswag]

So, I dropped my 340 with Keith today, and as usual we chat for a while.

He said there were a few joints on there, or, rather, the bows, that were cut at an angle. Typical Holton.

I’d bet, though, now that it’s sealed up, it probably plays better than my prettier model 340. Unfortunately, these factory Holton cuts and weird geometries are just going to be a part of these builds. At least they’re mostly hidden.

The 350 mouthpipe is dented up a bit, but nothing he can’t handle. It is stamped “BB-350” which I think is pretty neat that it will match the horn.

Got me thinking… Anyone have a BB-345 receiver lying around? I’d love to have the proper receiver on my 345.

[Sousaswag]

The BB-350 is DONE! I’m picking it up tomorrow.

I can’t post pictures right now, but I will when I pick it up. Needless to say, it looks great.

My suspicions were also right regarding the body and weird flat pitches… I’d bet my 345 is definitely leaking somewhere. More on that later!

[Sousaswag]

Okay, I've got the 350 home.

My suspicions regarding the big body ferrules and stuff seems to be right on. Flat open F? Nope. Flat C? Very slightly still flat, maybe like 5 cents. It's really a wonder what pulling these apart and putting them back together as correctly as possible will do.

I say that, the entire horn is still a little flat overall, but Keith told me to play it for a few weeks and see what happens. In any case, all the way in, most things are flat, but in relation to each other, the same amount of flat. I can accept this for now. I'll play it a while.

First impressions:

1) It's heavy. Really, really heavy. Unwieldy, front heavy (duh) and impractical.

2) Playing with recording bells is weird. It is so different from what we usually hear and I am so not used to it. It also doesn't help that I'm playing in a tiny room in my house. I definitely need to take this somewhere.

3) Holding it and playing is awkward. We've got to adjust the mouthpipe angle some. There's a little room to do it.

4) It is a beast. Response is pretty much what you'd expect, pretty much limitless volume potential, and a very good low register. I like it.

Some eye candy:

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Front on shot. Remember, I specified as little dent work as possible, and no finish work. It's never going to win any beauty contests, but looks pretty good for what it is! I'll strip what's left of the lacquer off of it this summer.

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Next to my 6465. NOT a small tuba, as we know. But man, this 350 is huge. Might as well call it a BFAT (Big Fat A$$ Tuba)

I'm very happy with it, and it's so cool to have. I don't have any idea when I'll actually use it with a group, but how many of these things exist anymore? I'm just glad I got this old thing together and making some sort of music again. Better that than ending up as a pile of scrap metal someday.

[MiBrassFS]

Friggin’ sweet! In this case impracticality is completely unimportant… It’s just grand that it exists! Congrats!