SOLD - Alexander 164 5 valve CC Kaiser Tuba

[Ted Cox]

A rare Alexander CC 164 5 valve tuba built for Tony Clements in 2004. I purchased this instrument nearly 5 years ago and have enjoyed owning it. Everyone seems to have an opinion about this model, but very few people have actually spent time learning how to play one. When this horn arrived, I played my Rudy 5/4 next to this Alex. My wife, a former horn player, said: "Fog" (pointing to the Rudy) and "no fog" pointing to the Alex. Alexander tubas are very clear - not bright - clear. The one note that really shined upon playing only a handful of notes that first time was the F# right below bottom-line G. Wow! That note wasn't a one-off as eventually, the entire tuba began to reveal what it can do. Every note on this tuba can be played in tune, with the help of an ingenious main slide mechanism that works like a charm. I'll include a fingering chart which will save the new owner a lot of time.
My opinion on why these tubas have the reputation they have is because they are unforgiving if there is ANY weakness in one's playing. It's not the tuba - it's you - a hard truth to swallow. But the payoff for any other tuba you might play is greatly improved. If you think you know how to move air and completely understand what Jacobs was teaching, this tuba will tell you the truth. My Alex F is more of an air hog than the Kaiser - believe it or not. The entire range is magnificent - low E and Eb are especially responsive. The condition of the horn is like new with two small dings in the bottom bow. As you can tell from the pictures, the horn is unlacquered and made in yellow brass. If you bought this horn new from Alexander, it would easily be twice the price of the $8,500 I'm selling this horn for. It's what I paid for it. It comes with a gig bag and a case. Not just any case, this case is custom to fit this horn and is basically an anvil case. I'll also include a Laskey 30-G mouthpiece that I think works pretty well. I'm firm on the price and not in any hurry to sell. The horn will be clean when it arrives as I find it rude to send a dirty instrument to a new owner.
To contact me, email is best - ted@spirithouseyoga.com
It's a good instrument but not one I use very often in my job - but what a sound! I play it several times per week. The pictures show you the size compared to my 163 Alex and the Rudy 5/4 I sold to buy this horn.

IMG_0864 (2).jpg (56.52 KiB) Viewed 793 times

IMG_0865.jpg (76.68 KiB) Viewed 793 times

[humBell]

Where?

(or is that whence? er, comes this tuba should it ship, or whither must one go to fetch it?)

[Ted Cox]

Ah, yes! I live in Oklahoma City. Year 33 with the Oklahoma City Philharmonic.

[tclements]

I loved this tuba. One of my students owned it, and it went to The Horn Guys when I sold "The Low Brass Werks." And to reiterate what the OP said, "if you can't play this tuba in tune, it's you."

[Ted Cox]

All, the 164 sold this morning - 3 days from the Wednesday posting.

[bort2.0]

That escalated quickly.

[Ted Cox]

And no one was more surprised than I was. Two offers to buy yesterday morning, almost back-to-back. During the 56 years I've been a musician, the only 164 I ever saw before the one I just sold was the one being built on the bench at Alexander in Mainz. IF someone "out there" owns one of these tubas and you haven't seriously examined the first valve slide, consider the possibility that it's too long and consider cutting an inch off. I know, it sounds drastic - but consider it.

[bloke]

If there's enough extra upward oriented tubing that can be sacrificed, it's often a little bit better tack to remove the entire slide assembly, cut as much as possible off of the upward oriented tubing of the 90° bends off of the #1 rotor, and then reinstall the slide assembly without cutting the slide tubes.

Leaving the slide tubes themselves as long as possible retains some options for tuning - ony one of which could possibly be to play the D with 1-3, as the 4th valve D on so many tubas is, flat compared to the fourth valve G.

Following this path could allow the 1st circuit to offer a sharp enough 1st valve D in the staff, yet also a low enough 1-3 D below the staff.

During this procedure is also a really good opportunity to touch up the alignment of that slide assembly, as the open ends of those 90° bends can be pulled this way in that to offer perfect alignment of the outside slide tubes.

[Ted Cox]

I'm sure all you stated is true. However, I received this tuba right as Covid hit, so taking it to Martin Wilk, for example, wasn't an option back then. My wife had a jeweler's saw, and the battlefield surgery was performed. One of my 163's had this same operation at some point. I wasn't involved in that surgery. First line G 1 and 3 was flat with the first slide all the way in. Believe me, I spent a lot of time with a tuner considering the pros and cons. In the end, there were no cons. With the ease of the main slide kicker, no other notes were damaged because of the surgery.

[bloke]

no criticism nor any "should have" stuff, regarding any particular tuba

I'm sure the new 164 owner is really excited (as they certainly should be!), and - even were they to chose to do as I suggested (which may well not even be desired or needed) - Alexander tubing is still available, reasonably priced, and (just as with Miraphone) the Alexander people are extremely accommodating - perfectly willing to finish a set of new tubes to specific lengths with their ends trimmed/finished and ready to install.

I just like to keep as many options open as possible, including the ability to take up or let out slack (in regards to a slide upon which so many tuba players rely) as much as possible. (nearly off-topic...) One of the amazing things about Holton 345 tubas (particularly with the B-flats) is how they engineered so very much 1st slide pull range into their design - allowing for (B-flat version) the 1st valve C to be up to pitch, yet (simply by working that single slide) offering chromatic range all the way down to C1 (with only the rarely-needed double-low B-natural requiring other strategies).

Pictured below is not a C instrument but (pretending that it is, for this discussion) retaining enough slide pull (avoiding cutting the tubes themselves) allows playing D with 1-3 (admittedly with only about 1/2 inch of pull to spare ) - as well as a nice in-tune third-space D (all the way in), which (ref: many tubas' tuning tendencies) allows for the 4th slide to be pulled enough for a flat-enough 2-4 C-sharp, as well as for the 4th slide to already be pulled out enough for most of the low range pitches (which involve that circuit) to be low enough in their tuning - possibly eliminating some low-range on-the-fly 4th slide adjustments.




again...
not a comment on a specific tuba nor any sort of "should have", but only a general comment regarding a different solution whereby more options might remain.

btw...I'm only commenting since the instrument has been sold to an (extremely lucky, btw) new owner...and there's no mystery why it sold so very quickly . I wouldn't clutter up an active ad with technical blather (such as these comments).

[matt g]

@bloke, this is one of those tangents that truly deserves its own thread, particularly for archival purposes.

Strategies regarding horn modifications are important and possibly overlooked by many people, even other techs/whatever you want to call them. Like in many other skilled trades, where to cut is usually far more important than how much.

[bloke]

@bloke, this is one of those tangents that truly deserves its own thread, particularly for archival purposes.

Strategies regarding horn modifications are important and possibly overlooked by many people, even other techs/whatever you want to call them. Like in many other skilled trades, where to cut is usually far more important than how much.

good advice.
I'd be glad for these comments to be cut/re-titled/pasted elsewhere (or just cornfield-ed).
I'd also be glad for you to edit or add introductory words, and remove comments related to this thread.

[Ted Cox]

A couple of points. I'm 6'1" with long arms. Reaching over the top bow on a 164 to move the first valve slide is possible, but not practical. It's far better to leave the left hand resting comfortably on the kicker. Not only was first line G problematic - but also third line Db, which is typically flat on a CC tuba. Again, nowhere to go with the original length. Now, perfect Db.
There isn't a local repairman that I would trust working on this particular tuba project. Which means, I would probably drive it out to Martin Wilk in Indiana. All said and done, I am probably investing $1,000 to shorten the first slide one inch. I had to remove the cross brace (which the new owner will have) and remove another brace not pictured. That small brace was used in another spot to help "shore up" the tubing. It worked great!
This tuba had three previous owners who either didn't catch this modification or didn't bother investing any further into the tuba. I've been playing Alexander tubas for 41 years and I was probably the ideal person to explore the 164. Playing it for almost 5 years only strengthened everything downstream. For almost any problem there is always another option and someone to second guess a decision. Had my modification failed, I knew I could fix it by restoring it back. It didn't fail and it didn't cost me a cent. I seriously doubt the new owner is going to invest either.

[arpthark]

Alexander tubing is still available, reasonably priced, and (just as with Miraphone) the Alexander people are extremely accommodating - perfectly willing to finish a set of new tubes to specific lengths with their ends trimmed/finished and ready to install.

I waited several months to hear back from anybody at Alexander regarding a slide extension for my 157. Maybe I emailed during their big European vacation time and I should've poked them again, but another tuba person in Berlin ended up helping me out so it's moot.

They're probably also more likely to help out repairpeople instead of random schmoes like me.

[bloke]

My picture is Miraphone.
point: The German large rotary tuba builders (and this includes the Czechs) are most all equally "guilty". "Nearly short enough" for (1st valve C/D) is "good enough" for the continental Europeans.

They have to have been making that circuit length X" long for since-forever (ie. tradition). These were all zum marschieren and bierhalle ? instruments, prior to be brought into the konzertsaal.