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Also directional, with relatively little sound power to the side of the bell, methinks.

Rick “more for out front” Denney

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:44 pm to the same (IMMEDIATELY RECENT) topic...

I currently own a kaiser B-flat. (I will probably sell it, later this year, but I've been having some fun with it, as well as fun doing some mechanico-sonic problem-solving on it.)

The few times I've taken it to orchestra rehearsals the bass trombonists (ok: "fesshunulz") remark that they have trouble hearing it.

I KNOW that it's frickin' LOUD, because OTHER "feshunul" players have tooted on it at blokeplace.

The thing is this:
Its bell is "way up there" (four feet high, once it's setting on my lap) and (simply) too high up above the bass trombonists' ears.

Bass trombonists here are accustomed to hearing wider/shorter-belled tubas. I don't hear German bass bones complaining about tall-belled tuba sounds. Maybe ours just need to listen differently...? Either way, I bet that 190 sounds strong and full out in the hall.

a very reasonable hypothesis, yet they never claim the same thing re: a 186 (which is basically a scaled-down-and-shorter kaiser-style tuba).

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 am Also directional, with relatively little sound power to the side of the bell, methinks.

Rick “more for out front” Denney

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:32 am a very reasonable hypothesis, yet they never claim the same thing re: a 186 (which is basically a scaled-down-and-shorter kaiser-style tuba).

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 am Also directional, with relatively little sound power to the side of the bell, methinks.

Rick “more for out front” Denney

Maybe the 186 is short enough for bass bones to hear...? I never heard anyone complain about Bill Rose's 186 sound, either from the section or the audience. He sounded clean, clear, in tune, and had plenty of sound.

Then there's this certain bloke:

Maybe they need to make a short kaiser.



Edit: better pic.

The Miraphone 98 was (is?) - pretty much - the astonishingly nearly-perfect blend of everything that someone might wish to have with an extra-large B-flat tuba:

...sort of a blend of 6/4 American and Kaiser German (something like the Czech Kaiser, EXCEPT with a focused sound, superb low range response, and excellent intonation)

amazing:
- resonance
- intonation
- ease of facility
- valve action

Its issues are these:
The largest market in the world is the USA which - overwhelmingly - buys into narratives and optics. It's B-flat, rotary, and funny-looking.

bloke "Were I to own one, the only alteration I would likely make would be to shorten its 5th circuit to an FF compensating semitone."

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:32 am a very reasonable hypothesis, yet they never claim the same thing re: a 186 (which is basically a scaled-down-and-shorter kaiser-style tuba).

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 am Also directional, with relatively little sound power to the side of the bell, methinks.

Rick “more for out front” Denney

Or is the Kaiser just a scaled UP version of the 186? Which came first the chicken or the egg ?

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:36 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:32 am a very reasonable hypothesis, yet they never claim the same thing re: a 186 (which is basically a scaled-down-and-shorter kaiser-style tuba).

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 am Also directional, with relatively little sound power to the side of the bell, methinks.

Rick “more for out front” Denney

Or is the Kaiser just a scaled UP version of the 186? Which came first the chicken or the egg ?

well…
Everyone here knows the history of the tuba in general, and knows that the instrument evolved from something that basically resembles a bass saxophone with a trombone mouthpiece stuck into the neck…
…so of course they started out smaller, but - fairly soon after - tuba manufacturing “humorists” decided to make some really big ones.

If you want to read about Kaiser tubas: https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/

If you want to cut to the chase buy an HB 193: https://www.baltimorebrasscompany.com/p ... -tuba.aspx

It depends on your concept. If you see the tuba as a string bass substitute, a dark sounding Martin or 24J is your baby. If you see the tuba as the solo bass voice you want more color in the sound, instruments that have more overtones are what you need.

I have played quite a number of CC tubas in professional orchestras and professional band. I thought I loved the Alex 163 sound until I heard recordings with a wind symphony. Then I did not like it any more.

In my last 10+ years, I played a Nirschl or BMB 4/4 CC and felt good about the volume and color.

I was never comfortable with an F tuba in band. Even the big Yamaha felt like a euphonium to my ear. I used them on a couple of solo licks but never for an entire piece except one tune.

...

An F tuba seems to me a color instrument in a band--it needs to float above a section and not try to provide the string-bass bottom. But with that it mind, it works great for a lot of things. I last used it when we played a band version of The Damnation of Faust. I get to use it in band maybe once every 3-5 years, so not often at all. It's great for some British music that has two distinct tuba parts, too--Lincolnshire Posy comes to mind. But I think it takes a section of four or five to make it work.

I didn't think of this before, but it comes back to my mind now. When I was in the San Antonio Municipal Band with Ray Grim, we had a pretty strong section of four or five players, all using 4/4 rotary tubas. Years have passed, and now Ray is playing the UTSA Wind Ensemble, a wonderful group with typical wind-ensemble instrumentation (meaning: two tubas). This is NOT a "loud, loud, loud" community-band group at all. Yet Ray finds the most satisfaction from playing a 5/4 Rudy Meinl rotary CC next to the 4/4 instrument used by the other player. A 5/4 Rudy seems rather kaiser-like to my eyes and ears. The full band tutti is certainly not without tuba representation, shall we say. I had the good fortune to hear them live a couple of years ago (pre-Covid) when I was in SA to attend the 40th-Anniversary Tubameister Christmas down there.

Rick "it's not just a question of being loud enough" Denney

I know many of my fellow Americans will disagree with this, but there is definitely a place for f tubas in a band.
If you’ve ever heard a professional German band with two BBb’s and two F’s, you’ll understand what I’m saying. If you ever hear a Czech or Hungarian band with just an f tuba player, you’ll understand.
In the end, it is far more about the musicianship of the player than it is about the key of tuba they are playing.

A very fine F instrument-and-player can add definition to a wind-band tuba section, regardless of whether only two - or more - players.
For several years in the 1980's, I ONLY owned an F tuba, and was hired quite a few times as a "ringer" for the (at that time / now: long-established) fairly newly-formed local "community bands"...whether they had only one player who would miss, or whether they had multiple players who would ALL miss (due to a concert being a "holiday" concert, or their tuba players simply not wanting to mess with the hassle of parking and getting into some crowded venue - such as a regional fair, etc.)
It did just fine for me, and - when one of those directors might "blindside" me with nimble-fingers transcriptions (such as - as just one example - the old warhorse, "Merry Wives of Windsor" Overture) the F tuba was a much better choice for tackling all of those runs, etc...

jonesbrass wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:58 am I know many of my fellow Americans will disagree with this, but there is definitely a place for f tubas in a band.
If you’ve ever heard a professional German band with two BBb’s and two F’s, you’ll understand what I’m saying. If you ever hear a Czech or Hungarian band with just an f tuba player, you’ll understand.
In the end, it is far more about the musicianship of the player than it is about the key of tuba they are playing.

...

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:45 am An F tuba seems to me a color instrument in a band--it needs to float above a section and not try to provide the string-bass bottom.

In German brass band, this proves true. If you simply play the octaves in tune, in time, and think of floating or coasting on top adding depth and color to the sound - playing easy and controlled instead of trying to honk/muscle out a big foundation - you actually do the job expected, it's more effective, and you don't get worn out.

I completely except the E-flat tuba thing in British brass bands, because - well – it’s part of their definition…and originally they were 15-inch bell instruments, as I personally believe they probably still should be.
As much as I have been defending bass tubas’ use in orchestras on certain pieces (in another thread), I’m not sure that they are particularly useful in typical brass/woodwind wind-bands, because there’s already an overabundance of “mezzo“ in that orchestration…
…and – exacerbating the “mezzo“ - is the fact that almost all wind instruments are larger and more “round”-sounding (dampened high overtones) than they were when wind bands were widely popular (a century ago).

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:29 pm …
Something tells me that your 188 was plenty adequate. Sometimes, huge mouthpieces tend to mute/dull/diminish the sound produced by wind instruments. Of course, I have no idea what you were using.

Is a Blokepiece Symphony a huge mouthpiece? It seems bigger than a Rose Orchestra, but I don’t have much context for mouthpiece description words.

“regular large”

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 am bloke "Were I to own one, the only alteration I would likely make would be to shorten its 5th circuit to an FF compensating semitone."

Still the plan?