Bort's Rudy Meinl 5/4 BBb (it is here!)

[bort2.0]

Whoa, sibling on FB Tuba/Euph marketplace for those with access. Nice pictures. Located in Germany.

Sent you a PM... I'd love to see it but not on FB. Or, do you have a link?

[Worth]

[Worth]

Yours looks bigger and WAY nicer!

[bort2.0]

Yours looks bigger and WAY nicer!

Thanks for the photos and the compliment!

A number of tubas were built and sold with the Reisser badge -- I believe that some were made by Cerveny and others were made in Geretsried, and of course, also by Rudy Meinl. I hadn't heard of any made by Miraphone (like the seller of the one posted above believes), but it's certainly possible...

Uwe Schneider used to have a page about Reisser on his website, but it's not there anymore and I didn't get an answer to my email to him. I'll try again. Or maybe Louis Kline can shed some light on the Reisser history.

The FB tuba looks pretty nice and shares some features with mine (like the valve mechanism). I wonder if all of the Reisser's have similar things? Or if the pictured tuba is actually made by Rudy? The ferrules look like mine. His badge is a little different (the Germanic typeface and the"f" looking letter "s") and of course, that "how could that even work" long vertical main tuning slide. It may actually be the same size as mine... I found that taking pictures is quite deceptive, and when not in context with anything else, it can really look rather "medium", when in reality, it's enormous. Having 2 small kids around the house, this tuba is about the same size as they are. It literally feels like there's another person in the room.

[Sousaswag]

Nice looking tuba! How do you feel about that pointy bottom bow? Is it comfortable for you to hold and play?

I hope you keep this one a while! I’d love to hear how it sounds!

[pjv]

The keel on the bottom... Hasn't injured me yet, but I'm cautious. Any guesses why there is a hole in it?

I've noticed this on many old RM's.

Jake (TheBerlinerTuba) has a quit extensive knowledge of German tuba's. You might try PM'ing him through this board or Messaging him though FB (maybe quicker??)

[York-aholic]

Uwe Schneider used to have a page about Reisser on his website, but it's not there anymore and I didn't get an answer to my email to him. I'll try again. Or maybe Louis Kline can shed some light on the Reisser history.

You might try the “way back machine” (archives internets sites) and see if you can find an old version of his site when it had the Reisser info up:

https://archive.org/web/

It might work…

[hrender]

Reisser still exists. Here's a link to their website giving the company history. I've linked it through Google translate to get the English translation.

Other references indicate they were a featured dealer of Miraphone, Cerveny, etc. It's quite possible they labeled other manufacturers' horns much like Lyon & Healy, Wurlitzer, and other dealers did over here.

[bort2.0]

Thanks, everyone!

Louis didn't have much to say, except that the horn was built, and then badged by Reisser. So, pretty much the usual stencil story.

I did know that Reisser still exists, and perhaps I'll contact them to see if there's any record of when they stenciled the tubas. If not, then I'll be happy enough to know it's approximate date, and that this is a very early Rudy Meinl tuba. Lee said it's maybe the oldest that he's seen from Rudy. Sometimes, there just isn't much more history to know. I do wonder how/when this tuba got to the US, though. The person I got it from didn't know a whole lot himself, either.

Also, thanks for the Wayback reminder -- I found what I was looking for, and it was a little underwhelming compared to what I thought I remembered. Oh well. I was glad to be reminded of it.

Uwe's site said that Reisser stenciled tubas from Cerveny, Miraphone, and Roland Meinl. I'm not sure the Roland part is correct.

Roland was Rudy Sr's cousin, and he did sell tubas for a short while, but they were made in China and not very good. Over a little time, Roland Meinl started making cymbals instead, and have done well with that.

Rudy Sr's father was also named Rudolf, and died in 1971. Rudy Sr (now in his early 80s) then ran the company until ??, and passed the torch to the current owner, Rudolf Meinl Jr.

The family history above is information I learned from Bob Tucci.

The build quality and construction of this instrument are impeccable. It bears the usual scars of a 60+ year old tuba, especially the bell. I am pretty much stunned by this tuba. I can only imagine what it looked like 100% new, long ago. And I also can only imagine the number of hours it took to build this tuba by handcraft, 60+ years ago in a tiny shop in Diespeck. Kind of a "you can feel the history" moment when I pick up the tuba.

Anyway, all glowing/gushing "new tuba" kind of stuff. It will wear off, but I find it important to respect it's history, as I prepare to take this tuba into it's future.

[prairieboy1]

Thanks for sharing that information. Now to playing it!!

[bort2.0]

I had my first orchestra rehearsal with the new tuba on this cold snowy April-in-Minnesota night. We were at a Masonic Lodge, so it was a very large room with a high ceiling, but carpeted and acoustically pretty dull.

These situations are always pretty strange feeling, because even if nobody says anything, YOU know you're waking into the room with a major change in your equipment.

When I first walked in, the gal who plays bass trombone noticed right away "alright! You have a gig bag now!" To which I replied, actually, it's a whole new tuba.

From the first note, I was kinda just overwhelmed by the quality of the sound. Focused, clear, and big, but without being pillowy or woofy. I think of it as having great sound projection, with residual presence. As opposed to a lot of presence, which also has good projection. What a lousy explanation! LOL Can make it edgy if you want. Can be nice and sweet, too. If you want loud, it'll take all you've got and ask for more. But except for some kind of ridiculous FFF sustained note, there was really no sense of it being any kind of an air hog in normal use (except pedal BBb)

About 10 minutes into the rehearsal, 1) I noticed a txt from @MN_TimTuba asking me how the tuba was and if anyone had noticed or said anything, and at virtually that same time 2) the bass trombone gal.leaned over to me and said "wow, your new tuba sounds really good."

The conductor seemed to like the sound -- got a good nod here or there. He generally seems to ask the strings to play louder than to ask the winds to play softer. I played appropriately, but didn't hold back especially on some THICK big chords. Never got the hand, but I guess there's always next week. :)

Anyway, a short list of pros and cons:

Pros
* THE SOUND! It's as if I have instantly unlocked the sound that I've hoped would come out of a medium-large CC tuba
* Easy to play. Quick response, great valves, and solid intonation
* Very even across the range. Lee told me that stuck out to him as well... I agree. Low, middle, or high, things just lock in.
* Great ergonomics, not hard to hold such a big horn. This horn is about the same size as my kids. They are way harder to hold on my lap. I did think at one point, holding the outer branch of the tuba was like holding onto a leg. It's just that big around.
* BBb fingerings were not a problem! Came back to me very quickly. A few mental gaps and wrong fingers, but small stuff.
* Overall, if I let the tuba do some work for me, it is glorious and does some work for me. I've never made a better sound by playing more relaxed. It doesn't need much effort to "go."

Cons
* It does take some.effoet to "not go". Meaning, I've got some work to do with softer playing and starting notes. I had some pianissimo anxiety today. Those string players are such showoffs to play so softly, and I felt like an elephant trying to tiptoe. It's all there... I just need to practice playing lightly to lock it in and have more automacity with it.
* It's heavy. It's not hard to hold like my old Willson or Marzan, which made my back and shoulders ache and sore. Back and shoulders are fine, but this tuba made my butt hurt from having an extra 26 pounds sitting on my lap. I think the chairs at the lodge weren't great, but they never are. The keel on the bottom was completely unnoticeable.
* Pedal BBb is not there for me right now. The horn is not an air hog, except for pedal BBb. That's the extra-lung note. It's there, I just need to work it out. Frankly, I think I'm just approaching it wrong.
* As with other rotary tubas I've owned with the "pretzel" tuning slide, I found that the water collects not only where the spot valve is, but also in the tuning immediately behind the spit valve. On my old MW-30, I had a second water key installed back there. Maybe I'll do it here too, only because it's such a big tuba to try and spin to get the water out.
* Alteiri bag... It's gotta go. Believe it or not, the bag is actually even a bit TOO big for my horn. Only thing worse than an Alteiri bag is an Alteiri bag that's too big.

I love this tuba. The only thing right now that I could even potentially see as an issue is the transportability and weight of the tuba years from now (oh, quiet, I know me + years with a tuba is unheard-of!). But this was the point anyway... Get this huge tuba now, while I can handle it, and not when I'm 60 and wished that I'd have had it 20 years earlier.

From my earliest days of playing the tuba, I remember looking up what little tuba information was on the Internet. I remember seeing Rudy Meinl tubas, and -- no lie -- listing over the 5/4 BBb. It just had the physical appearance that caught my eye and stuck with me.

I've been through a lot of horns, and this is the first Rudy 5/4 BBb that I've even seen in person. I'm amazed and humbled that I get to own this tuba. Better yet, it's just as much fun to play as I had hoped.

[bort2.0]

One more "pro"... It worked famously with my beloved Thein RCC mouthpiece that I have used for the last 6(?) years. I really don't plan on changing mouthpieces with this horn... Except for maybe a large Rudolf Meinl mouthpiece. Hrmm... Maybe the lack of mouthpiece shopping is actually a "con"? Now I'm panicked... Do I need to buy another Thein RCC as a backup just-in-case?

Oh, and as for gig bags, it's either a @greenbean Superfine in leather, or a Gotz. I've always loved the svelte Gotz top-loaders. But for a fatass heavy tuba, a clamshell "lay it on the ground" bag may be easier. And, leather is just classy AF, especially if this is a "looking forward in years" decision. Just saying, Tom, a leather top-loader has always-always been my dream bag, and I'm only buying one gig bag, you know. :P

[Sousaswag]

Awesome! Thinking about gig bags, I agree, get rid of that Altieri ASAP. If weight is a concern, leather is going to weigh more, yes? On an already heavy horn my personal preference would probably be cordura if I’m carrying it a lot.

With the pedal BBb, I wonder if mouthpiece choice may help. On these big horns, using a huge mouthpiece may not be the way to go. I’m not 100% convinced I’ll play the Pt-50 forever on my MRP, but it’s the best choice I’ve got right now. I’ve been told a Geib mouthpiece might be a good idea on a large rotary instrument. Maybe give one of those a whack and see what it does?

[Doc]

From my earliest days of playing the tuba, I remember looking up what little tuba information was on the Internet. I remember seeing Rudy Meinl tubas, and -- no lie -- listing over the 5/4 BBb. It just had the physical appearance that caught my eye and stuck with me.

Congratulations on the purchase and the first outing with it.
Those Rudy's have a certain appeal, and they have their own mojo with the sound. I've spoken ad nauseum about the 3/4 CC I had and should never have sold, but I get it. If I ever win the lotto (maybe I should buy a ticket?), a Bayreuth model will be among those on the list of immediate purchases. They are just that good.

With the pedal BBb, I wonder if mouthpiece choice may help. On these big horns, using a huge mouthpiece may not be the way to go. I’m not 100% convinced I’ll play the Pt-50 forever on my MRP, but it’s the best choice I’ve got right now. I’ve been told a Geib mouthpiece might be a good idea on a large rotary instrument. Maybe give one of those a whack and see what it does?

YEP!

If you like the PT 50, you might try a PT 88/RT 88. If you don't have access to an 88, but want to try one, PM me.

Others you might consider:
- Sellmansberger Solo w/ tall rim (and possibly an extension ring)
- Sellmansberger Symphony
- Laskey 30G
- Stofer Geib
- Miraphone TU 42 or TU 43
- Tilz WH BH2

@Robert Tucci might have a recommendation that might be better suited to that particular instrument. He returns emails and is a delight to talk with.

[bort2.0]

Thanks guys! I will eventually try different mouthpieces, but for now I'm sticking to my "change one thing at a time" rule. If I change both mouthpiece and tuba at the same time, that's just too many moving targets.

Lee said that when he tested it, the RM10 was what he used and it worked very well (disclaimer -- for years, he used a 5/4 Rudy CC with an RM10 as his primary instrument... so that was very familiar to him).

As for others on your list, I have owned some of those and used some of those on my Willson 3050RZ, and eventually settled in on the Thein RCC. I also really liked the sound and playability of the Tilz WH-B2 on the Willson, but the rim diameter was a little hard to keep up with (too wide). Then again, the Willson also needed a little more effort than the Rudy to make it "go." The Geib mouthpieces were a great compromise of size and sound. My favorite was the James R. New Geib, special ordered with a larger backbore. Maybe I need to go back down that rabbit hole again... I had forgotten about that for a while.

But for now... any problems are me, not the mouthpiece, and not the tuba. I've had the Thein RCC for about 6 years, so it's familiar and comfortable, and is a great baseline for me to focus on learning this instrument. The pedal BBb thing seems as much as anything to be my ear/brain/mouth working together, and remembering that this open pedal note actually is that low. It just takes max relax to let that note out. And good news, it's not a note that I'll need to play in public any time soon.

At some point I'll post a recording or some sound clips. My house is noisy and busy, and with my wife working from home these days, I just don't get a chance to play at home, in an environment that's conducive to making recordings. It's a fabulous tuba and it makes a great sound. I miss some notes. I make the same mistakes as I always have. But I'd like to thin

[Rick Denney]

It takes me months to settle in a mouthpiece that works. On the Eastman, I’m now using an old Doug Elliott T cup with a shank the he had turned down just a tough to seat deeply in my York Master. I’ve gone through half a dozen mouthpieces with the Eastman. The truck is finding a big mouthpiece that doesn’t let me slack off my embouchure enough for the pitch to sag. That was also the trick with the York Master, which was bigger but on the same conceptual planet. Sort-of. And the Eastman wants a mouthpiece that sits deeply in the receiver.

After falling back to a Helleberg in the Hirsbrunner, my mind and chops resettled themselves and I’m back to the Sellmansberger Orchestra Grand cup with the Symphony backbore, and switching between that and a plain Symphony (both have the same rim). The Symphony is on Planet C4, which seems to be a friendly planet for big German rotary tubas. That may be where I end up, but I’ve been focusing on the Eastman recently give that my group is now rehearsing and performing in a resonant church side chapel instead of the usual dead, deader, deadest school band rooms and auditoriums where the Hirsbrunner and Holton excel.

I’ve never found anything better than a Sellmansberger Solo on the B&S—that one slotted in immediately and at this point might even be stuck there.

The RM has built-in power. No need for a power mouthpiece, it seems to me.

I’m surprised you aren’t finding a few intonation quirks. Rudi’s are known for a sharp sixth partial, for example. Maybe that’s just the C versions.

The classic Rudi bell has a tightish curve mid-flare and then a somewhat straighter section between there and the rim flare. I firmly believe that is part of the Rudi Meinl formula. I think some orchestra dudes in the day thought of them as substitutes for the rare Alexander tubas that had good (read: manageable) intonation, but to me they have their own brand of power that is appealing. I find a 5/4 RM to be more playable than an Alex 164, based on the 42 seconds I had with one of the latter years ago. :)

Rick “much ado about nothing” Denney

[bort2.0]

I’m surprised you aren’t finding a few intonation quirks. Rudi’s are known for a sharp sixth partial, for example. Maybe that’s just the C versions.

The classic Rudi bell has a tightish curve mid-flare and then a somewhat straighter section between there and the rim flare. I firmly believe that is part of the Rudi Meinl formula. I think some orchestra dudes in the day thought of them as substitutes for the rare Alexander tubas that had good (read: manageable) intonation, but to me they have their own brand of power that is appealing. I find a 5/4 RM to be more playable than an Alex 164, based on the 42 seconds I had with one of the latter years ago. :)

Oh, I'm sure there are some quirks; I've had the tuba only for a few days, but nothing particularly sticks out to me, except (same as 4-valve CC tubas) needing either different fingerings or a little slide stuff for the very very low range. That's just a mathematical reality.

I traded my fantastic Alex 163 CC towards this Rudy. The Alex had no shortage of output, but the Rudy has output plus an inimitable breadth to the sound. It's a serious sound, no messing around.

This is gonna be fun with orchestra, but will be especially fun to unleash this in a large, loud band. You want more tuba? Be careful what you've asked for.

[bloke]

My 5/4 (defacto 6/4) RM C - intonation-wise - behaved(s) itself better than all of the other (the various .750"/19mm bore, as the RM 5/4 is a 22mm bore instrument) 6/4's that I previously owned.

I only played a B-flat RM 5/4 for a week or so (after repairing it for a customer), but I seem to recall (though I didn't have it long enough to grow accustomed to it's vacuum-cleaner tendencies) that it wasn't troublesome (in the tuning dept.) at all.

That having been said, it was a (comparatively, to the badged one - discussed in this thread) modern-era version.

If you remember my pre-coup-era thread about interchangeable capillary portions of RM 5/4 C mouthpipes, I believe that the CURRENT (oem) versions might more resemble the one that I made for that instrument (ref: old-style "vacuum-cleaner" tendencies).

[bort2.0]

My 5/4 (defacto 6/4) RM C behaved(s) itself better than all of the other (the various .750"/19mm bore, as the RM 5/4 is a 22mm bore instrument) 6/4's that I previously owned.

I only played a B-flat RM 5/4 for a week or so (after repairing it for a customer), but I seem to recall (though I didn't have it long enough to grow accustomed to it's vacuum-cleaner tendencies) that it wasn't troublesome (in the tuning dept.) at all.

That having been said, it was a (comparatively, to the badged one - discussed in this thread) modern-era version.

If you remember my pre-coup-era thread about interchangeable capillary portions of RM 5/4 C mouthpipes, I believe that the CURRENT (oem) versions might more resemble the one that I made for that instrument (ref: old-style "vacuum-cleaner" tendencies).

Thankfully, my RM 5/4 has been refitted with a Miraphone 190 leadpipe, which you've told me is smaller than the stock Rudy pipe. I've never done an A/B test to compare old to new, obviously, but whatever is there now both plays well and looks nice in nickel silver. Curiously enough, the Alex 163 CC that I traded away for this tuba ALSO had been refit (independently) with a Miraphone 190 leadpipe.

[bloke]

Awesome! Thinking about gig bags, I agree, get rid of that Altieri ASAP…

In my view…
Altieri is to tuba bags as Unitec is to tuba cases.

…and others will have differing opinions.