TubaForum.net

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:24 pm If we go completely paperless with everything, the world's going to be taken by pulp wood trees. They will become the new kudzu.

Ironic, considering that the packaging world is slowly moving away from plastics to paper- and pulp-based packaging products that can be easily recycled. Paper and aluminum are the easiest things to reuse, whereas plastics and electronics are among the hardest.

Pulp trees still have reason to fear.

And in my opinion, the main reason to go paperless is that mass mailings are simpler and quicker if they're totally automated and sent electronically. Plus where money counts, postage costs have become more and more of a problem.

I prefer music on heavy paper and will only switch to a tablet when forced to, though I'm a long-time technerd.

FWIW, I'm hardly the "young guy" at 62 . . . I'm trying the tablet since I am sick and tired of wrangling 4 and 5 page pieces out in the wind, wrestling the 5 or 6 clips needed to keep it from flapping around and still make changes, and chasing stuff if/when it gets away . . . Interesting that you mention the marching size stuff . . . . Played a lot of that, but typically off a lyre that was a heck of a lot closer than a stand, compensating for the size difference. I'm seeing the same thing with the tablet - due to size, I can put it on a boom stand closer than the paper would have been, and going landscape, the size is about the same, so with the possible exception of washing out in the sun, I fully expect readability to get better, not worse.

And unless I forget to charge for days, I can't fathom needing cords, etc. Not "on the air" to any network, not processing hard, so battery life should be 8 hours or more, so unless doing something like playing in a pit orchestra doing multiple shows back to back, I can't fathom losing power (and may carry a power brick in my bag "just in case" . . . ) (And were I playing in a pit, I'd likely use the power for the stand light to keep the charger powered).

Trust me, I like paper too, and if most of my gigs were indoor would not likely be doing this . . . The fact that Imuse my tablet a lot (now, for instance), makes my total cost about $15 for the software . . . and time investment about 60 seconds per page to scan the music for the tab (it's an older, alower scanner . . .)

Your mileage and preferences may vary, obviously . . . (And who knows, I may change my mind after actually using this in the wild . . . .)

(I do know I would have killed for this in the 1980's, when a group I was playing in had a director that used to pick concert numbers realtime . . . It's *very* nice to have absolutely everything with you without toting 100's of pages worth!)

Since I said I'd only go to a tablet only when I have to, I thought back to gigs on bass where I had to tape 8 or 9 pages of nonstop bass charts together and use two music stands. Or the times I had 20-page piano parts to work from and had to either make up my part and hand write it or just lay out a few notes to turn a page, which I'm uncoordinated and clumsy at, and mess up the turn too often. A tablet and footswitch would have certainly made my life easier then, so I guess it's time for me to quit being a Luddite about this.

I got back into playing a few years ago (community band stuff, after years of basically just tubaxmas/homecoming type playing).

I switched to a tablet because I had one, and it seemed like a good idea.,

What I found is that it has enabled me to be MUCH better than I ever was about marking up my music. I'm a lefty, and making legible notes on the part means putting down the horn. With the tablet (and Forscore) I can quickly, and LEGIBLY add annotations. Being able to add highlights, use different colors, and have a pallet of correctly written symbols is a game changer for how I approach learning and playing.

(And for the record, I'm a Flic button stuck to the horn with that clear spongy removable double-stick tape turner, not a foot pedal guy).

What button did you find? That was my first thought, since I would not need to worry about my foot slipping off a pedal, but didn't find anything. (had some fantasies about trying to do something like a 5th valve thumb trigger, but decided it was too much work, but then again, my AirTurn pedal is basically a wireless box with two pedals, than be used with any kind of switch (up to 4) should I choose to try that setup.)

Oh, and I'd ideally want a switch that (like a trigger) has two positions, so that backing up is possible in case of an "oops!" as well

It seems to me that two handed players (fiddles/woodwinds/trombones, etc.) like the foot switches (and that's yet another appliance that I failed to list associated with tablet music reading...ie. tablet, stand, charger, case, and footswitch...batteries?), but the tuba players who I see using tablets (since we have more rests) seem to be able to reach out with the right hand and do the "half page" thing.

Since this stuff is so clever and all, it seems to me that it wouldn't be difficult to an an AI element whereby the tablet listens to what's being played and flips the pages without the musician having to do it manually (or podially).

ok...Depending on how sublime or sucky the execution of the music, the AI might need to be particularly intuitive.

tadawson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 10:43 am What button did you find? That was my first thought, since I would not need to worry about my foot slipping off a pedal, but didn't find anything. [...]

Oh, and I'd ideally want a switch that (like a trigger) has two positions, so that backing up is possible in case of an "oops!" as well

I'm using the Flic Button. Single-click goes forward (or forward half-page which is my preference) and a double-click goes backwards.

@travisd How's the tactile response on the Flic button? I use an AirTurn Duo, which I am generally happy with, though it is off-putting that there is no "click" to when you press it. I just usually stomp on it and it's no problem.

With the Flic button being designed for a finger-press, it'd be nice to have a click feedback so that you know you've pressed it fully and have it be precise enough that you don't have to worry about feathering it too lightly.

Flic buttons are meant to adhere to a surface usually, right? That's why you use the double-sided spongy tape? I wonder if anyone has designed a mount (maybe 3d printed) that lets you use a variable size velcro strap to move it from instrument to instrument. Certainly be cheaper than buying a Flic for each horn!

Course then you'd have to remember where you left the dang thing...probably with the keys...

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 2:22 pm @travisd How's the tactile response on the Flic button? I use an AirTurn Duo, which I am generally happy with, though it is off-putting that there is no "click" to when you press it. I just usually stomp on it and it's no problem.

With the Flic button being designed for a finger-press, it'd be nice to have a click feedback so that you know you've pressed it fully and have it be precise enough that you don't have to worry about feathering it too lightly.

Flic buttons are meant to adhere to a surface usually, right? That's why you use the double-sided spongy tape? I wonder if anyone has designed a mount (maybe 3d printed) that lets you use a variable size velcro strap to move it from instrument to instrument. Certainly be cheaper than buying a Flic for each horn!

Course then you'd have to remember where you left the dang thing...probably with the keys...

I use a two button device normally used as a remote for the camera, like 10 dollars at Aliexpress.
Also bought a cheap foot pedal, but I can't see it while playing so not so useful.
There is also the possibility to use face gestures and a metronome to flip the page but didn't try that as far.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 2:22 pm @travisd How's the tactile response on the Flic button? I use an AirTurn Duo, which I am generally happy with, though it is off-putting that there is no "click" to when you press it. I just usually stomp on it and it's no problem.

With the Flic button being designed for a finger-press, it'd be nice to have a click feedback so that you know you've pressed it fully and have it be precise enough that you don't have to worry about feathering it too lightly.

Flic buttons are meant to adhere to a surface usually, right? That's why you use the double-sided spongy tape? I wonder if anyone has designed a mount (maybe 3d printed) that lets you use a variable size velcro strap to move it from instrument to instrument. Certainly be cheaper than buying a Flic for each horn!

Course then you'd have to remember where you left the dang thing...probably with the keys...

Mine is a Duo as well, and that's why I was thinking of simple switches - you can take the "pack" off the Duo, and plug your switch(es) into it, and not have to rebuy the expensive part, or worry about rebinding to the tablet.

I addressed all of your questions satisfactorily, though I'm sure you would personally find most of the ways in which I addressed them (understanding the way that you generally seem to view things) unsatisfactory. The phone logged out of this site by the time I typed it and checked it for errors, and it was lost. I can produce it again, but I'm not going to do it on my phone. I doubt that you would enjoy reading it. It's just a bit too reality based.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 3:46 pm I addressed all of your questions satisfactorily, though I'm sure you would personally find most of the ways in which I addressed them (understanding the way that you generally seem to view things) unsatisfactory. The phone logged out of this site by the time I typed it and checked it for errors, and it was lost. I can produce it again, but I'm not going to do it on my phone. I doubt that you would enjoy reading it. It's just a bit too reality based.

Did it include a list of the downsides of paper music? Or a list of symphony websites where it is “incredibly difficult” to find program information?

Those are two questions I directly asked you which you have not answered.

I can't answer about the downsides of paper music, because - as long as it's actually full size (10x14) and actually printed, I don't see a downside (I'm pretty sure I explained that I view dot or laser printed typing paper music as well as tablet music to be equally poor) and I typically do have to click all over the place to find out what actual pieces are going to be played on specific concerts on symphony orchestra websites, so - that having been stated - I don't know what there is to elaborate on regarding that issue either.

In the same way that I didn't answer those questions a second time, I tend to not answer people's questions a second time when they text me asking me things, I give them an answer, and then they come back with the same question again, yet phrased in a different way or expecting me to elaborate... so you don't need to feel like you're being singled out.

If you continue to bully me, though, I might end up crying, and I might go tell my mommy.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 4:27 pm I can't answer about the downsides of paper music, because - as long as it's actually full size (10x14) and actually printed, I don't see a downside, and I typically do have to click all over the place to find out what actual pieces are going to be played on specific concerts on symphony orchestra websites, so - that having been stated - I don't know what there is to elaborate on regarding that issue either.

If you continue to bully me, though, I might end up crying, and I might go tell my mommy.

Which goes back to my earlier point: we are so used to the downsides of paper music, we simply ignore that they exists and can’t imagine how digital music can address those issues. Here are some simple problems with print music:

- paper degrades over time, deteriorates through physical contact, tears and smudges
- it can blow away in the wind and requires significant fiddling to secure for outdoor performances
- it can become cumbersome in large volumes (any book with 100+ charts in it is a pain to handle)
- it needs to be sorted manually (digital set lists can be alphabetized and have new charts inserted easily)
- paper parts get lost (either by an individual or in the mail). If your set of parts only had one tuba part and it got lost in the mail, you’re SoL if you didn’t copy or scan it
- physical parts have to be physically distributed, either costly shipping or requiring an individual spend their valuable time traveling to pick up music. Digital parts can be distributed and received almost instantly
- paper can be copied (which typically has a slightly degraded result), but a set of physical parts is more finite in nature than digital parts (which can be printed at a more consistent quality)
- printers for high quality print jobs are incredibly expensive (there’s a reason why your local symphony likely maxes out at 12”x18” booklets, there’s a huge jump in cost to go beyond that)
- each physical part needs to be marked individually (for a fully digital orchestra, your librarian would only need to bow five string parts instead of 40+, depending on your string size)

I’m sure I could think of a few more, but I think I’ve made my point. Paper music is not perfect, and digital music addresses many of its deficiencies while bringing its own set of problems to the table.

Re: websites - I was once again asking you to provide actual evidence for claims that you’ve made, instead of just taking your word for it. I asked it in good faith so I could see exactly what you meant.

You're posting the same stuff over and over again and you're trying to get me to do the same thing. I know what a troll is. I am a troll. Who do you think you're messing with?
I've heard you play the tuba. You play it a lot better than you troll.
I understand wanting to practice to get better before you try out your skills on Facebook.
Have you noticed that the only people who are thanking you for your posts are those who vote (or who would vote) the same way you do?

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 5:09 pm You're posting the same stuff over and over again and you're trying to get me to do the same thing. I know what a troll is. I am a troll. Who do you think you're messing with?
I've heard you play the tuba. You play it a lot better than you troll.

I’m just trying to get you to answer simple questions.

I've come to realize that significant decisions within your life hinge on my resubmitted answers to your simple questions. Considering how important this is to you, I'm going to invest more time in considering their redundant answers. As aware as you have made me that this information is vital to you, I hope you can exercise patience while I consider the consequences of revealing their answers to you yet again.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 2:22 pm @travisd How's the tactile response on the Flic button?
With the Flic button being designed for a finger-press, it'd be nice to have a click feedback so that you know you've pressed it fully and have it be precise enough that you don't have to worry about feathering it too lightly.

Flic buttons are meant to adhere to a surface usually, right? That's why you use the double-sided spongy tape? I wonder if anyone has designed a mount (maybe 3d printed) that lets you use a variable size velcro strap to move it from instrument to instrument.

It clicks enough to know you've hit it, and so far has not been prone to any accidental pushes.
It comes with a sticky back, but that doesn't work well for curved surfaces. I use a square of this stuff and it makes the flat back button more compatible with the branch tubing that I stick it too. I've been happy with it stuck up on the upper inside branch where my left thumb can get to it while I'm holding the horn near the 1st valve slide.

@peterbas - what device did you get? I tried a cheap 'remote shutter' button but couldn't map it to the correct keys for Forscore to recognize it.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 8:41 am I've come to realize that significant decisions within your life hinge on my resubmitted answers to your simple questions. Considering how important this is to you, I'm going to invest more time in considering their redundant answers. As aware as you have made me that this information is vital to you, I hope you can exercise patience while I consider the consequences of revealing their answers to you yet again.

Can you direct me to the symphony websites you mentioned previously that were very difficult to locate their concert schedule? I am still curious as what that looks like to you and haven't been able to locate any such examples myself.

Couldn't find them right away because I bought them on Amazon, not Aliexpress.
They all work on Mobilesheet (Android and ereader version) but with the one button one I can get it to go backwards with double click or long click.
https://www.amazon.com.be/-/nl/dp/B00LM ... asin_title
https://www.amazon.com.be/-/nl/dp/B07ZD ... title&th=1
https://www.amazon.com.be/-/nl/dp/B09YR ... asin_title