TubaForum.net

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:21 pm Yamahas weren't always that expensive. I bought my 621 F tuba (which, I don't care a whit what anyone says, is an excellent little F tuba) for $3000 in 1991. It's still the only tuba I ever owned that made more money than it cost.

Of course, the same tuba is more than twice that now. But that isn't the only tuba that costs more than twice what it cost in 1991.

Rick "thinking that lifecycle cost analysis isn't in the wheelhouse of most band directors, but should be in their administrations" Denney

Those are fine tubas...within the minor limitations that five valves on short tubas offer (and I sell five-valve F tubas, so this is not a criticism).
In 2020 dollars, you paid around $6000, which is about how some price the best-made Chinese F tubas (those which equal European fit/finish) today...so I agree that you paid a low price.
____________________
Back to the band director topic, though...

Another criticism that I have of so many (after all, it's not their money...) is that their mindset is here:

I've got this really good kid [often a junior or even a senior], who needs a really good horn.

Whereas (in my view), their mindset should be here: (as individual kids come, and they go)

I've got this really good horn, and I need to continually develop really good kid{S} to play it to its potential.

bloke "no arguments...and my other point being that many band directors are willing to shell out HUGE dough - at taxpayer expense - in the HOPES of slightly increasing the likelihood of some SINGLE-year 'all-state glory'. "

Yama-yama Men sounds like something out of Dragon Ball Z.

My question is why would they buy Jupiters when they could purchase John Packer or Chinese clones (even through reputable dealers like Mack Brass and Wessex) for much cheaper and get better (or at least equal) playing results?

I feel Yamaha is better value wise than Jupiter, because Yamaha are at least durable and consistent.

russiantuba wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:24 pm My question is why would they buy Jupiters when they could purchase John Packer or Chinese clones (even through reputable dealers like Mack Brass and Wessex) for much cheaper and get better (or at least equal) playing results?

The only reason would be that one is made by ROC instead of the PRC/CCP.

If they are all PRC/CCP (Including Yama-yama) you have a point.

Quoting Bloke;
"Another criticism that I have of so many (after all, it's not their money...) is that their mindset is here:
I've got this really good kid [often a junior or even a senior], who needs a really good horn.
Whereas (in my view), their mindset should be here: (as individual kids come, and they go)
I've got this really good horn, and I need to continually develop really good kid{S} to play it to its potential."

Developing 'really good kids' is what it should all be about! I'm so in love with this statement!

GC wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:30 pm Yama-yama Men sounds like something out of Dragon Ball Z.

Or Dr. Who!

Dubby wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:21 pm

GC wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:30 pm Yama-yama Men sounds like something out of Dragon Ball Z.

Or Dr. Who!

Yes. The newest minions of the Daleks (if they get brought back - long convoluted story with competing claims of ownership of the name and the form)

Quite a few Yamaha instruments have been made in the People’s Republic…as have Besson and others...

I do not like the Yamaha tuba/euphonium piston valve casing design, whereby they are thin wall, and there is no thickness available for a relief area where the threads are at the tops and bottoms of the casings.
Whenever casing male threads are damaged on these, it is extremely difficult to repair them without affecting the interior of a casing and its fitment to its piston...
...so this – combined with their Clorox bottle thickness plastic cases - are not a sign of durability, at least not to me.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:10 pm ...so this – combined with their Clorox bottle thickness plastic cases - are not a sign of durability, at least not to me.

Must have been designed by the same Mitsubishi engineer as the old Zeros.

I mean, why make it last if it will only be flown once??

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:00 pm bloke "no arguments...and my other point being that many band directors are willing to shell out HUGE dough - at taxpayer expense - in the HOPES of slightly increasing the likelihood of some SINGLE-year 'all-state glory'. "

Bloke is correct in saying that. Bear in mind, though, that most band directors, especially if they are not tuba players, do not do their homework and usually buy what their music dealer rep (who is working on a commission) recommends or what said rep is willing to sell. The Miraphones I mentioned the school buying were actually bought after I retired, so I had nothing to do with that. What I bought in the 90s were Cerveny 781s (not sure about the model no.), which were far more affordable than the Meinl's and Miraphones, and turned out to serviceable and durable enough. Our dealer never seemed to be able to get Kings. Also, band directors have to buy bass clarinets, baritone saxes, French horns, euphoniums, and all sorts of percussion at so-called school prices from a rep who works for a commission. When your school is not near a metropolitan area, your choices are limited, and the schools I worked for always seemed to shy away from online or catalog dealers, preferring the nearest brick and mortar store.

In Texas, schools are cash-strapped because of THE TEST, and all other programs' budgets take a back seat to the expense of training teachers to teach to the test, plus hiring multiple administrators whose only job is THE TEST. State govt.alone spends $90 million per year to prop up Pearson, who composes and prints THE TEST. Also since THE TEST title is always an evolving acronym (TEAMS, TAAS, TAKS, STAAR), money must be spent on new letterheads, stationery, etc. every couple of years. How many King tubas would $90 million buy?

cktuba wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:45 am ... I really don't like Yamaha 3 series, with the exception of the YEP321... but I feel like there are cheaper options even for that.

The YEP321 is OK?

I like mine, but my euphonium experience is extremely limited, and most anything would more flexible than my '50s Conn 3V baritone.

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:32 pm

cktuba wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:45 am ... I really don't like Yamaha 3 series, with the exception of the YEP321... but I feel like there are cheaper options even for that.

I like mine, but my euphonium experience is extremely limited, and most anything would more flexible than my '50s Conn 3V baritone.

Is the YEP321 is alright...??
'salright.


I've owned a YEP321 ($300/silver/used-like-new/1978)...and - over the years- have sold a few more (nice/used), but this is better for half the $$$$, and - I suspect (these days) - made in the same country...

https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... -euphonium

Thanks, bloke. That's the one I had on my list, but then a 15 year old Yamaha was available for next to nothing, so I'm satisfied for now.

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:45 pm Thanks, bloke. That's the one I had on my list, but then a 15 year old Yamaha was available for next to nothing, so I'm satisfied for now.

I liked my 1970’s Japan-made non-comp Yamaha with the big water keys, the metal valve guides, and the fine threads on the valve caps very much.

Not sure what vintage my 321 is but it does have metal valve guides. I like it a lot. And it was in the >$1000 realm which is good since I don't like spending money on horns that aren't going to pay for themselves. It'll happen but it might take a bit since I very rarely get called upon to play the euph.

Very easy to play and responsive in all registers with pretty good intonation. Mine only has the one water key on the main slide. Eventually I'll have my repair guy add some to the 1st and 4th valve loops. I don't get too much in #3.

Besides the very first student model trombone that my father bought me, this is the only Yamaha I've had any dealings with. Both instruments seem solid to me. I've heard the sousaphones are excessively heavy but with very good intonation. I haven't had the opportunity to play one.

The really early 321 instruments featured very long #3 slides…
...more like 6 or 7 inches, instead of three or so.

NOT on-the-fly, but this made them capable of playing most of the really low chromatic pitches.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:26 pm The really early 321 instruments featured very long #3 slides…
...more like 6 or 7 inches, instead of three or so.

NOT on-the-fly, but this made them capable of playing most of the really low chromatic pitches.

I have one on those that I bought new in 1978. I sold it, then traded back for it.

.

I don't like my tax money going for $10K tubas - whether German-made, Chino-Japan-company-made, or (even) US-made (were there any $10K US-made tubas).

Currently-built Miraphone 186 tubas (those Miraphones which are mostly sold to schools) are not any thinner than any others (well...except for stuff like Willson), and nor are they particularly tall (not much taller than a King 2341, actually), and their bells (for decades, now) are 1-1/4" diameter wider than in the past (slightly less chance of being knocked over, though I see the 22" bell tubas get knocked over just about as often)...

...but a worse problem (as $10K tubas, otherwise, would last lifetime{S}) is that many children - due to lack of parenting and lack of instilled values - tear up stuff, whether it's $1500 stuff or $10,000 stuff...

...so (since kids tear stuff up really quickly) school systems should buy the lowest-priced Jinbao stuff from the lowest bidders, and throw it away - after it's torn up, yes?

...OR (a far better and more economical solution)...convert all school wind-bands to (plastic) fife-and-drum bands...(??)

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:10 pm Quite a few Yamaha instruments have been made in the People’s Republic…as have Besson and others...

I do not like the Yamaha tuba/euphonium piston valve casing design, whereby they are thin wall, and there is no thickness available for a relief area where the threads are at the tops and bottoms of the casings.
Whenever casing male threads are damaged on these, it is extremely difficult to repair them without affecting the interior of a casing and its fitment to its piston...
...so this – combined with their Clorox bottle thickness plastic cases - are not a sign of durability, at least not to me.

This has been a criticism of mine, as well, and for all Yammy brass. I've seen players with strong hands deform trumpet valve casings, and this is exacerbated that they advertise a thou or less clearance.