TubaForum.net

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:57 am Those who read my way-too-many posts know that I am the anti-ergonomics person, as I don’t have any trouble holding and playing most all tubas...except for these. They’re just way too top-heavy.

The Kurath (Willson predecessor) I had required me to put it on the chair with me. If tuba stands had been a known thing back then, I would have definitely used one. I was still skinny enough for it to fit on the chair with me, so it wasn't such a big deal. Holding it on my lap, however, WAS a big deal.

The version in C is more difficult to play in tune, with the lower D-sharp as sky-high as the Hirsbrunner D-sharp is gully-low. The combination of “top-heavy“ and “having to constantly work the #3 slide - in addition to having to constantly work the #1 slide“ defines these as (for me) very difficult instruments to operate, with serious struggles involving transcending "operation" on up towards "music creation".

I'm curious how much the intonation improved (or didn't) when the Willson 3050 came out. Mine required some work, but at the time, I didn't think it was too much. Today, I'm in the Bloke/Bill Rose camp of "it needs to play in tune very well." If the horn doesn't have a sound a really like, I won't consider it anyway. (Even if Barney's Double Bass $#!+Bugle has perfect intonation, but... uh... sounds like a $#!+ bugle, I won't buy it).

The B-flat version is easier to play in tune, but – well - it’s not a “C tuba for kolij“...which is one of the main factors that hurts the selling value of tubas (whether end-user or reseller) built in B-flat in the United States.
Everyone enjoys posting “It doesn’t matter what key your tuba is built in“ when speaking out to teenagers, but – in reality – that’s just so much lip service, compared to what really happens.

I preach the same information, and I try to practice what I preach (2 BBbs, a CC, an Eb, an F, and a euphonium).

bloke "who speaks truth to p̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ mostly, fat guys"

I'm a guy who is mostly fat, so I can receive truth without much fuss.

Doc (noting he sounds like himself on all tubas, only nuanced by each instrument's respective design, so intonation is at the top of the list)

Doc wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:20 am ... Today, I'm in the Bloke/Bill Rose camp of "it needs to play in tune very well."

Just for someone with limited experience, what kind of in tune counts as "[plays] in tune very well"?

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:25 am

Doc wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:20 am ... Today, I'm in the Bloke/Bill Rose camp of "it needs to play in tune very well."

Just for someone with limited experience, what kind of in tune counts as "[plays] in tune very well"?

Minimal to no slide pulling, without a TON of alternate fingerings.

My tubas:
Hagen:
- Eb in staff - 1 slight pull MAYBE*
- Pedal F - 4th slight push
- Pedal Eb - 5+4 slight push on 4 (4th about the same spot as for Pedal F)
- Pedal C - 5234 long pull on 4

blokespecial 186 CC:
- If I'm really off my game/out of shape, D in the staff - 1 with MAYBE a very slight push. MAYBE*
- Pedal D - 5234 pull on 4

Symphonie F:
- I pull/push NO slides. There is a fingering for everything.

Packer 277 Euph:
Point and shoot (with poor euph chops, it's outstanding, so it must be good)

Conn 20J:
Intonation is close enough for government work. This is my John Daly tuba - grip it and rip it.

Wessex Eb Helicon:
Still working this out, but initial observations:
- All Ab's seem to require 1 w/ slight pull (low Ab 1+4 pull on 1)
- G's seem to require 1+2, slight pull on 1 (different mp/bit combos allow open G in staff) Low G seems decent w/ 234
- Low F 1234, long pull 1 (there is no 5th valve)

*MAYBE = if I'm not on my game/out of practice/don't have my strongest buzz

I consider these tubas to have fairly easy intonation, with the 186 being the most point-and-shoot. With the exception of the pedal range, the Hagen is pretty much point and shoot also. If you don't count alternate fingerings (not many anyway), the Symphonie is pretty stellar. (I'm not a frequent flyer on euph, so I didn't put it #1). None are overrun with a bunch of intonation challenges, and none have intonation that can't be easily fixed. All are fun to play and aren't hindered by constant slide pulling that might take away from the musical effort.

IF you can get a horn at military auction good on ya.

Most of it goes to prisons.

If your in prison... BAD on ya.

Dubby wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:39 pm Whatever it is, let us know how it plays. I’m always interested in those gov auctions. Never tried to buy anything though

So, after an extended wait, the Willson TUBA arrived at the shop and I've gone over it for the owner. It is in fact a model 3100 5FA BBb TUBA (capitalized for effect) and it is big and heavy. I have played a few 3050s over the years and never really enjoyed them as much as other tubas. I now own a 3400 Eb and I'm really liking it. But this beast is a different ballgame. In its Altieri gig bag, it comes in at a svelte 40lbs. The first casing, yes casing, had some sort of vent drilled that has been plugged by a previous repair. This is not the first odd vent location I've seen on a Willson and I'm not sure if this was a factory modification or performed by a technician. I guess an email to Willi might clear that up.

The overall condition of the horn is what one might expect from seeing service in a (assuming) military band. No evidence to which band this belonged was provided. Lots of dings throughout the horn along with some pretty deep gouges indicate that it was used but not abused. It plays very evenly throughout and has no "quirky" notes. The only exception was the pedal B natural. With all five valves, I expected a fair amount of resistance, but not this much. I would have to spend more time with it and do some mouthpiece experimentation to further determine if it was me (probably is) or the horn's inherent issue. And really, how many pedal Bs do we have to sit on in most of our repertoire?

The tuba's sound is robust and would suit any medium to large-sized ensemble. I didn't feel as much "bell dive" as I felt on the 3050. If that were a concern, a playing stand would help.

I haven't seen too many of these in the wild and I'm glad I had the opportunity to work on it and play it a bit. I hope the review helped anyone that might be considering one of these big boys or those that were curious. I believe the owner drove to pick up the tuba rather than have it shipped in that protective cardboard.

that protective cardboard.

HAHAHAHA

That's an incredibly neutral review. I have no idea if you liked it or not! :)

40 lbs? Pass!

tofu wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:46 am Most stuff went for absurd high prices and people would way over pay for stuff - and most of them you could tell didn't even think of the add on buyers premium which would get tacked on -which back then was somewhere between 10-15%. I saw stuff that was still available new go for more than full retail. Never understood the total lack of discipline or knowledge of the regular folks who would just get caught up in bidding wars.

This ends up like eBay. It's the place where you can find what you're looking for much easier, but once someone enters the bids (and those clowns that bid at the very beginning of the auction, and drive the price up before it closes), they get emotionally attached and don't mind spending more than the product is worth if they win it. I've lost some sniping to someone who outsniped me, and while I feel that momentary loss, I realize they were willing to pay more than I would have.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:57 amEveryone enjoys posting “It doesn’t matter what key your tuba is built in“ when speaking out to teenagers, but – in reality – that’s just so much lip service, compared to what really happens.

I see this all the time, and I have no real interest in moving to CC. Mainly because I was so proficient on euphonium, and I'm just now getting proficient on the tuba, and this is where all the exciting stuff is happening. I've had 20 years of fingerings ingrained into my head, that I'd rather not spend a few weeks trying to remember to finger a whole step lower than I'm thinking. When (if) I ever end up with a bass tuba, this has been my thought, as well...but I intend to treat it like a new instrument, not a tuba with different fingerings. After all, I don't confuse bass and tuba fingerings.

But yeah, since I've found examples of great players using BBb, I feel like I'm justified in using the key I'm comfortable in. I've thought about playing tricks to confuse listeners if I'd ever do a screened audition, like warming up in C major so they don't get derailed if they realize it's a bigger horn and they have prejudices. But I'll decide how stupid that idea is if I ever get in that situation.

BopEuph wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:29 am

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:57 amEveryone enjoys posting “It doesn’t matter what key your tuba is built in“ when speaking out to teenagers, but – in reality – that’s just so much lip service, compared to what really happens.

I see this all the time, and I have no real interest in moving to CC. Mainly because I was so proficient on euphonium, and I'm just now getting proficient on the tuba, and this is where all the exciting stuff is happening. I've had 20 years of fingerings ingrained into my head, that I'd rather not spend a few weeks trying to remember to finger a whole step lower than I'm thinking. When (if) I ever end up with a bass tuba, this has been my thought, as well...but I intend to treat it like a new instrument, not a tuba with different fingerings. After all, I don't confuse bass and tuba fingerings.

But yeah, since I've found examples of great players using BBb, I feel like I'm justified in using the key I'm comfortable in. I've thought about playing tricks to confuse listeners if I'd ever do a screened audition, like warming up in C major so they don't get derailed if they realize it's a bigger horn and they have prejudices. But I'll decide how stupid that idea is if I ever get in that situation.

There is neither NEED nor REQUIREMENT for anyone to play CC. Unless, of course, someone wants to study with a handful of old-school teachers who mandate it - because you aren't a serious, legitimate tuba student in the US unless you play CC and F (orchestral track automatically assumed). Or if someone decides they have to keep up with the Jones' on the US audition circuit with the seemingly requisite 6/4 CC sound. But if YOU aren't trying to do those things specifically, there is NO ONE who will really care about the key of your tuba. Most tuba players won't care (they'll likely just want to know about your equipment/gear), and, as you already know, your colleagues won't care as long as you sound good, play in tune, play in time, show up on time, and aren't a complete @$$hole.

--- For the record, I have nothing against 6/4 CC. Generally, I'm a fan of the sound. If I found one that really wowed me or was the right tool for the job at hand, I could own one. And, obviously, I don't have anything against CC. Or anything BBb. Or EEb. Or F. Or Bb.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind getting orchestral work, since my chops are skyrocketing in this period. I have a strong classical background (I played a lot of cello before tuba or bass, and was deeply involved in youth orchestras on cello), but I'm not going to blow money on what amounts to winning the lottery when it comes to getting a full time orchestral position that pays my bills. Being a casual Disney musician pays better than the local orchestra does, and I'd be so low on that sub list I'll never be called. So buying a $10,000 instrument for the off chance that I'd get a $500 weekend with an orchestra just doesn't appeal to me.

That being said, if it turns out that they're accepting of a BBb in the orchestra, I'd love to play with them.

My Opinion:

I do not think that a BB flat in an orchestra is the wrong tuba. There have been and still are some fine orchestral players in the U.S. that were BB flat players, Connie Weldon, Herbert Wekselblatt and Ev Gilmore to name three past tuba musicians and James Jenkins currently. I have never played in a group that the conductor demanded a specific key tuba (or even cared), they wanted to hear a musician playing a tuba and fitting in the group as they wanted. I also think that if you play the BB flat the only thing that will be noticed is your playing.

I play CC tubas and the reason is that my teacher at the time, David Bragunier at Peabody, when I ordered my Alexander said "I do not know why CC tubas generally are played in American orchestras,do not fight it". He then said" if you were in Germany you would be playing F and BB flat".

Connie Weldon (my other teacher) said that the conductor of the Miami Philharmonic said to her that he would not want a BB flat tuba in his orchestra and was glad that she played a CC tuba. He also told her how much he liked her playing. Her comment to me was "I kept my mouth shut and he never knew that I was playing a BB flat".

Best,
Mark

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:07 am That's an incredibly neutral review. I have no idea if you liked it or not! :)

40 lbs? Pass!

Ok, I'll admit the word "review" was used pretty loosely and I didn't offer much in the way of opinion. I guess I haven't played it enough to form an opinion but the weight alone would make me pause. If it were mine, I would have to play it in different groups and spaces to get an idea of what it could and couldn't do. And would I be employable with this as my main axe? Don't know. That will be for the owner to determine.

In my role as a tech, I want to make the instrument operate the best it possibly can so the owner can play their best music. My opinion doesn't matter that much. I don't want a technical/mechanical issue to be the reason a player doesn't like a horn, especially if it's something I can fix.

Back to fixing stuff.

Mark E. Chachich wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:52 pm I also think that if you play the BB flat the only thing that will be noticed is your playing.

I very much agree. I have a friend who's a great low brass player, but thinks you can't win a job with a BBb. People will notice. He doesn't believe that when I point out, those who notice are literally brass players only. Nobody's watching the fingerings. But I also believe there are prejudices like his in enough regional orchestras that it does make a difference. So, I would play BBb, but I'd hope I'd play it well enough that nobody would notice what key the horn is in.

I play CC tubas and the reason is that my teacher at the time, David Bragunier at Peabody, that I ordered my Alexander said "I do not know why CC tubas generally are played in American orchestras,do not fight it". He then said" if you were in Germany you would be playing F and BB flat".

Mark E. Chachich wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:52 pmConnie Weldon (my other teacher) said that the conductor of the Miami Philharmonic said to her that he would not want a BB flat tuba in his orchestra and was glad that she played a CC tuba. He also told her how much he liked her playing. Her comment to me was "I kept my mouth shut and he never knew that I was playing a BB flat".

I once had a gig that required a C extension, but the need was lost in translation when the contractor (a trumpet player) misheard the company requesting the bassist. When I got the music, instead of calling the contractor and letting him know about this, I came up with a solution so I didn't lose that gig. I also did a great enough job that I became one of his top call bassists. Connie was right in not correcting the conductor.

Mark E. Chachich wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:52 pm Connie Weldon (my other teacher) said that the conductor of the Miami Philharmonic said to her that he would not want a BB flat tuba in his orchestra and was glad that she played a CC tuba. He also told her how much he liked her playing. Her comment to me was "I kept my mouth shut and he never knew that I was playing a BB flat".

Best,
Mark

Assuming that she was using her Alex 164 BBb at the time... that's even funnier... since there are virtually no CC tubas of that shape/size/appearance.

BuddyRogersMusic wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:56 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:07 am That's an incredibly neutral review. I have no idea if you liked it or not! :)

40 lbs? Pass!

Ok, I'll admit the word "review" was used pretty loosely and I didn't offer much in the way of opinion. I guess I haven't played it enough to form an opinion but the weight alone would make me pause. If it were mine, I would have to play it in different groups and spaces to get an idea of what it could and couldn't do. And would I be employable with this as my main axe? Don't know. That will be for the owner to determine.

In my role as a tech, I want to make the instrument operate the best it possibly can so the owner can play their best music. My opinion doesn't matter that much. I don't want a technical/mechanical issue to be the reason a player doesn't like a horn, especially if it's something I can fix.

Back to fixing stuff.

Fair enough! Thanks for replying anyway! :)