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I haven't had the best luck with condition of rotors when buying used from Germany.
I would hope that this particular tuba has good valves.

I’ve been eyeing that silver 4260 they’ve got there… Don’t need it, but man, I’m sure that thing is stellar…

@prodigal , so what did you get for your son?

Heavy_Metal wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2026 7:20 pm @prodigal , so what did you get for your son?

A pretty nice PT-1!

C J wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2026 1:01 pm

Rick Denney wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2026 7:00 am @prodigal, I haven't seen a 3100 with the old Symphonie graduated bore on the B&S website for a while now. It used to be designated the PT-9, but they have gotten rid of all the PT designations at this point. I didn't seen any with a bore reported at less than 19mm.

The 3100 with the graduated is still on the German website:

https://de.b-and-s.com/bs_DE_de/f-tuba- ... 2-0gb.html

I played one of these last year in the Tuba Showroom down in Jacksonville, Fl. Had I the cash at the time, I would've bought it up immediately. I played something like 12-14 F tubas there... of those, it came down to 3: A Meinl Weston 2182, a Meinl Weston 4240, and the 3100. The B&S played better than those two by about 10% and everything else I tried there by at least 40%. Whoever bought that horn got something really fine.

Everything that's a enlargened version of a B&S F Symphonie model doesn't play as well as a Symphonie model. Most all of them (simply) are more work to achieve not-quite-as-good results.
All of them (it just seems to me) are failed attempts to make the range below the staff respond the same way the same pitches respond on C-length instruments.

Even C-length instruments don't respond in the same way (in that same range) as B-flat instruments, whereby B-flat instruments respond better in that range.

B-flat instruments:
- B-flat below the staff generally responds better (vs. C instruments), because two additional feet of expanding bugle are engaged.
- C below the staff generally responds better, because - rather than the "hollow" sound obtained from a 16-feet open bugle - it engages (not only) an 18-feet bugle, but several more feet of cylindrical tubing, which adds even more "teeth" to the sound. (but tuning the 4th valve to low F, and expecting a tuned-flat-for-C 4th circuit to resonate beautifully when "lipped" up to in-tune isn't the ticket. The way to "kick butt" on the pitch "C" on a B-flat instrument is to play it with valves 1-3, and pull slide #1 for tuning.)

During my final days of playing C instruments (after playing C instruments for 50 years or so) I found myself (quite often) playing C below the staff (rather than "open") with valves 5-1-3 (for that "B-flat tuba-sounding" low C). ...that "surprise" super-loud C (just after the bassoon decending arpeggio in Tchaik 6)...ALWAYS play that on a C tuba with valves 5-1-3. It will cause the patrons to freakin' jump out of their seats! (and put a huge smile on the M.D.'s face as well). like this: https://www.facebook.com/reel/1784069444969174 Excuse someone's cell phone recording quality.

Gene Pokorny:
DECADES AGO - when I would study with him of-and-on - at least once in every single session - he would relate the B-flat tuba sonority to valve combinations. Notice that he now often plays (albeit one of those "pretty good for the money ones") a B-flat instrument in the orchestra.

the ol' bloke:
Last night - playing all of those epic John Williams movie compositions on the easily-played-in-tune-and-remarkably-resonant "Fat Bastard" (though I played "Jaws" and an "E.T." piece with the Symphonie F tuba, and covered a "Raiders" 4th trombone part on the cimbasso) I felt a bit giddy.

...that first low B-flat in the "Star Wars" main title...(as loud as one can play with a beautiful sonorous sound - and with a tuba that is just chomping at the bit to do it...)

I'll try 5-1-3 out tomorrow. It sounds fun!

If Karl Kinser built a tuba, it would be the Symphonie. (Karl Kinser is a legendary sprint car mechanic, probably the best.)

bloke: I tried 5-1-3 on my 186, and I got a rather interesting sounding B natural. I have the old, long Mirafone 5th valve (I set mine to play F as 5-2-3).

I think the newer 21st century Miraphones have a shorter 5th valve, correct?

I played the 186CC with the band today. It was fun, they need a tuba player. I'd play their concert, but it's the same night of my daughters' orchestra concert, where I'm helping and playing bass as well. The bass is okay, but if playing a contrabass tuba is like driving a truck, playing the bass is like steering a supertanker.

LOL...
Yeah with the "compensating minor third" style fifth valve, you're not going to get a c natural with 513.

That's it.

prodigal wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2026 12:35 pmThat's it.

What comes out when you mash 512 ?

I haven't tried that one, I'll give it a go tomorrow!

Getting to 5 is most of my problem right now, I'm still getting used to 5 on the left hand with both the 186 and the PT-15.

Oh, dat is purdy!!!!

C J wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2026 1:01 pm

Rick Denney wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2026 7:00 am @prodigal, I haven't seen a 3100 with the old Symphonie graduated bore on the B&S website for a while now. It used to be designated the PT-9, but they have gotten rid of all the PT designations at this point. I didn't seen any with a bore reported at less than 19mm.

The 3100 with the graduated is still on the German website:

https://de.b-and-s.com/bs_DE_de/f-tuba- ... 2-0gb.html

And here is something to think about for Bort2.0
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ ... 02-74-8700

or
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ ... 2-74-23770

bloke wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2026 1:22 pm

prodigal wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2026 12:35 pmThat's it.

What comes out when you mash 512 ?

A C, but nowhere near as clean (and angry) as open. I'm doing some volume work on the 186CC vs big-bell 186BBb to work on finding my nasty limits.

prodigal wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2026 12:20 pm

bloke wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2026 1:22 pm

prodigal wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2026 12:35 pmThat's it.

What comes out when you mash 512 ?

A C, but nowhere near as clean (and angry) as open. I'm doing some volume work on the 186CC vs big-bell 186BBb to work on finding my nasty limits.

probably depends on the instrument.
The next time someone brings (any) C instrument here for repair, I'll see about demoing it...(though it will only be with a phone mic).

again...My B-flat tubas play "open" B-flat with plenty of gusto (due to the additional bugle length), so not needed.
also repeating a comment: The opening "B-flat" ("Star Wars main title") the other night with Fat Bastard...awesome...and not because of bloke; the instrument did it FOR bloke.

Your instrument is definitely interesting. Honestly, from my perspective it looks hard to play because of the open-ish wrap. It seems like looking at my 653-open wrap, but far more challenging to slot, than my PT-15, which (although NOT a Symphonie) slots pretty darn easily and is so easy with air. FB really looks like an air hog to me, but looks can be deceiving.

I guess I need to take more test drives, I'm EXTREMELY happy with my horns for my (amateur) purposes, but it is interesting to try different instruments. (And REALLY pleased with the PT-15 because I got it for a VERY good price.)

I don't like pistons though. I have an arm inseam of about 39 inches, but my fingers are short. I guess not enough oxygen made it down my ape arms for them to grow, so I really like the easy to move action of rotors, not to mention the (normal German) sound which pleases my Teutonic genetics.