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Man, that thing is gorgeous. I think, though, like a friend said the local corporate marching bands would be more apt to hire me with a sousaphone than a helicon. But that horn is super tempting.

donn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:24 pm Did you happen to see this one? Buescher-York Helicon Tuba Key of BBb?

Sent this to a friend who's really into trad jazz, and said this horn doesn't "exist." Checked it out a bit and it seems to be a York bell on a 36K body.



My guess is that looped neck is to compensate for the shorter bell. Still it's a good looking horn and is now on the radar.

A friend said he has some spare horns that need work that he might be willing to part with.

The nice thing about the fiberglass sousaphone, aside from reduced weight, is that you can paint it or decorate it any way you want. You could have one helluva professional job done on it, or you could rattle-can it your self. Or just slap stickers all over it like an old suitcase. (I personally want one with the entire bell done in a high-gloss metallic candy-apple red, and the glass part of the body done in a high-gloss pearl white. Definitely a pimp bass.)

I don't know who told you that a helicon would look funny, but it's on point historically. And some folks like the way they play and the way they sound better than a sousaphone. But like anything else, trying is believing.

As far as playing EEb sousa or helicon, I'm of the same mind as @bloke. If you're playing by ear, you only need to know what buttons are "home base" for whatever key the band is playing in - then let it rip. I would definitely understand, however, if you had some reading gigs and didn't want to make the commitment to adapt to reading EEb. I do know, however, that my EEb helicon has four valves, is easy to play, sounds good, looks good when I wipe it down, and only weighs 18lbs. A Wessex BBb 4v helicon weighs around 25lbs, a 3v around 23lbs. I don't know if @tubadude's 1909 King BBb helicon is for sale currently, but he is a great player that plays the heck out of his (among other tubas as well) who can tell you the merits of helicon. @Schlepporello is another helicon guy. In fact, there are quite a few around here: Lovin' Me Some Helicon Thread

You already know that if you have the chance to start playing some of these different options, you might be able to narrow in on what will suit your needs. I postulate that there are a number of players here, regardless of coronamadness, that would gladly let you honk on what they have to get an idea. Not sure if any retailers near you are allowing play tests, but you can sure ask.

And if you ever come this way, you can honk on anything I own - I have soap and water in abundance, and there's never a bad time to clean your horns or hang with friends.

In my opinion, fiberglass sousaphones don't carry as well as brass. Reduced weight, but most sousaphonists 'round these parts go for brass for a better, less tubby, edge.

I have lots of opinions about this topic. But I'll try to keep it concise.

I haven't played many new horns but for the price, I'd keep to the used market. The vintage American made horns are the way to go. Unless you want a helicon. Then I highly recommend you look into the Wessex horn. It is the most comfortable (marching) horn I've tried and sounds really good.

Speaking of sound, there is really only 2 different paths to go down. They are represented by Conn and King but I'm not saying the others shouldn't be considered on their own merits.

Conn's have a rounder, fuller tone and are harder to overblow (get an edge to the tone). I think of them more like the P-bass sound. It's really solid and big but without being overly present. Especially the 38K/40K and 20K models.

King horns, on the other hand, are a bit easier to get that crunchier in your face sound like you'd expect from a NOLA second line band. To continue the bass analogy, maybe like having a more modern axe with active pickups.

If you wanna stick to the traditional sousaphone route, and you're going to go used vintage American horn, I'd say that finding a horn in good condition is probably more important than which particular make/model. You can get the job done on any horn if it's working well.

Given the option, I'd say don't bother with old 4-valve sousaphones. Unless of course it's in great shape and plays really well (and your back doesn't mind).

I'm only familiar with Conn 40Ks as I've never had the chance to play any other old 4-valve souzys. It seems to me that they didn't think of 4-valve horns the way we think of them today. If you notice in the old ad copy, they often refer to the 4th valve as a "register key". I've found that Conns in general have a too long 3rd valve circuit so they can get those 13 and 123 combinations sorta close. Well, they didn't adjust that circuit when they added the 4th valve so 23 is still too flat. In other words, they weren't thinking that 4 would replace 13 but instead it's used for extending the range downward. The best fix seems to be shortening the 3rd valve circuit a bit and (on 3-valve horns) turning the upper 1st valve loop into a slide.

Yes, sousaphones seem to have some of the easiest/best sounding privileged tones (false tones). Another reason to not bother with the 4th valve unless it is going to help you with intonation.

BopEuph wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:27 pm

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:23 pm I have not seen complaints about the Wessex helicons.

I was wanting a helicon, and a friend pointed out that most people would be disappointed that I don't have a sousaphone.

The only time a band leader has been disappointed with my axe had to do with bringing a fiberglass horn. And that was from a very particular, trumpet playing band leader and it was for a formal graveside funeral service. It was the only horn I had at the time. Nobody has ever complained about a helicon vs. a sousaphone. They keep calling me no matter what horn I bring. But then again, I rarely play a gig with another tuba player. So if that is something you do for your "generic corporate marching band gigs" I can see only having a helicon as being an issue. I have 3 sousas and a helicon so when the rare instance arises I can blend in.

Oh, and there really is no good reason to go down the Jumbo path until you've got a couple of good normal size horns and money to burn!

This is really great information. Thanks!

Yeah, I feel like they might make a big deal. I think I'd love a Wessex helicon as a future horn, though.

As for fiberglass, I hear a lot of guys my age have been getting them to make sure they don't ruin their backs in older ages, and that does sound like a good reason. But the main trad jazz bandleader I work with has already said "NO FIBERGLASS!" I kinda wonder how long he'd take to notice if I'd painted it with a metallic spray paint...but he's a brass instrument buff, so he'd probably give it the close exam almost immediately when seeing it for the first time.

The info on jumbo/monster: That seems like great advice. I didn't even consider weight when first thinking about this, but that's probably a big reason I shouldn't get that (or 4-bangers). That, and they probably have a bigger sound than I should be getting.

I really dig comparing horns to basses. The analogy really makes it easier to understand.

Unless you are in HS or college, you really should pay attention to weight. I have a Conn 20K from 1957... it is 28 lb! And that is a 3-valve sousa!

I am starting to figure out this HN White King 4 valve EEb sousaphone. I figured out that I could use my index finger for the fourth valve, since I am used to having the 3+1 setup on EEb Tubas.

After playing a 20K, and this EEb Sousaphone on back to back days, I can definitely feel a huge difference in weight.
https://youtube.com/shorts/CmnkCdZxMAk

I got me a 36k several months ago. It was an emotional "want" purchase as much as anything else. (See avatar) The fact that it has a 24" bell instead of 26" is a ++ in my book too.

My local band is doing a gig next week outdoors and we had a rehearsal yesterday indoors. So I brought it.

I tested it out at home first and intonation is decent through the usual range of our rep.

MTS out almost 2 inches and others all the way in. (Normal for me)

I'm pleased with how tuba-like it sounded, of course I tried to coax that out of it by not overblowing. But it was good, no complaints. It will pop out low Gs and Fs all afternoon!!

It was "Economy Refurbed" at Taylor music. New Conn neck and bits, shipping and tax included for -2k. They were a pleasure to deal with. I was sent comprehensive up to date photos including the pistons. It arrived as described. It was shipped in two boxes UPS without incident. The shipping peanuts were bothersome but they taped off the openings to keep them out of the body. A pain, but it worked so...

I haven't found a lessor priced one in as good a condition since.

Doc wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:12 pm The nice thing about the fiberglass sousaphone, aside from reduced weight, is that you can paint it or decorate it any way you want. You could have one helluva professional job done on it, or you could rattle-can it your self. Or just slap stickers all over it like an old suitcase. (I personally want one with the entire bell done in a high-gloss metallic candy-apple red, and the glass part of the body done in a high-gloss pearl white. Definitely a pimp bass.)

Consider;

http://www.stretchablecovers.com/sousa_gallery.html

I've gotten a "MIND THE TUBA" cover in the style of the London Underground signs and a sousa cover with a Fighting Blue Hens logo on them.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 am I got me a 36k several months ago. It was an emotional "want" purchase as much as anything else. (See avatar)

My local band is doing a gig next week outdoors and we had a rehearsal yesterday indoors. So I brought it.

I tested it out at home first and intonation is decent through the usual range of our rep.

MTS out almost 2 inches and others all the way in. (Normal for me)

I'm pleased with how tuba-like it sounded, of course I tried to coax that out of it by not overblowing. But it was good, no complaints. It will pop out low Gs and Fs all afternoon!!

It was "Economy Refurbed" at Taylor music. New Conn neck and bits, shipping and tax included for -2k. They were a pleasure to deal with. I was sent comprehensive up to date photos including the pistons. It arrived as described. It was shipped in two boxes UPS without incident. The shipping peanuts were bothersome but they taped off the openings to keep them out of the body. A pain, but it worked so...

I haven't found a lessor priced one in as good a condition since.

Everyone knows that the easiest way to get rid of peanuts is to put the box in the back of your truck, head over to some other neighborhood at 3 A.M., un-tape the top of the box, and drive down one of their streets at c. 20 mph.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:51 am [
Consider;

http://www.stretchablecovers.com/sousa_gallery.html

I've gotten a "MIND THE TUBA" cover in the style of the London Underground signs and a sousa cover with a Fighting Blue Hens logo on them.

Call it being a product of one's occupation, the first things that came to mind were not anything I should probably purchase:

A black cover with big red lips in the middle (a la The Rolling Stones) and "KMWEA" in big white letters underneath.

"The tuba is speaking. STFU!"

"Move, b*+ch, get out the way!" (50cent reference)

"Depart from the King's presence post haste!" (In a Monty Python sort of fashion)

"Yes. Admire my large instrument." (I hear that in Emperor Palpatine's voice)

"P*ss Off!" (in the appropriate British accent)

I would likely order what I got for my last tuba shirt: "I like big bells, and I cannot lie... you other tubists can't deny..." Or some Star Wars/Tuba nerd something or other.

@bloke By "some other neighborhood" you mean City Hall or the Federal Courthouse.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:54 am @bloke By "some other neighborhood" you mean City Hall or the Federal Courthouse.

nah...
Those people would actually hunt you down and string you up, because you committed an offense against ~them~.

Just do it in some neighborhood where most of the people living in those neighborhoods willingly empower those in the places you mentioned.

Anyway...They do it to me, daily.
Each morning, I have to walk down to the highway and pick up lotto tix, blunts, malt liquor cans, 1/2 pint plastic bust-head whiskey bottles, KFC waste, 16 oz. sicky-sweet drink bottles, dirty diapers, etc., etc...OH YEAH, and now: masks

GENERALLY SPEAKING

Old vs New: old US horns are tried and true. Down side is that most of these horns have leaky valves because they are old. New horns can be a dude just because the modern sousa market is oriented towards the amateur.

Brass vs Fiber: we know how brass sounds so it's easy to play on. Fiber is lighter but playing one might throw you off since we are not used to how a fiber resonates. We don't really think about it but we are sensitive to the horns physical vibrations (which travel through your hands for example). So fiber feels different. But if it's well made (and the brass to fiber is well connected) it sounds the same. Also fiber doesn't dent so you can lay these horns down anywhere between sets.
Plastic is another matter.

Sous vs Helicon: whatever you want

Conn's have a great sound and some funky intonation things happening. Conn's are not the easiest instruments to muscle the intonation around, so when you first start playing you can probably push it to where it plays in tune, but the longer the gig the more it can wear you down.
A Holton 130 has a lovely sound but intonation is like the Conn 20K.
King, Olds and Martin have better intonation. Martin's are heavy, very well built and difficult to find. Olds are smaller, lighter and not always so sturdy.
King, like Conn, are everywhere which makes replacement parts easier to acquire. King also has a funny loop on the inside which jabs into your ribs. If this bothers you you can try playing with your right arm "inside" the sousa, so the horn rests on your arm and not your ribs.
A Cleveland is rolled up like like a Conn but plays like a King (since it is a King). Nice horns.

Good luck.

Not every Conn sousaphone is a 20K/22K, by the way.

I sometimes wish I'd stuck with my Reynolds sousaphone.

The Olds/Reynolds full-size sousaphones are very close to what would be attained by soldering a King valveset on to a Conn 14K body.

donn wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:19 am Not every Conn sousaphone is a 20K/22K, by the way.

I sometimes wish I'd stuck with my Reynolds sousaphone.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 am
My local band is doing a gig next week outdoors and we had a rehearsal yesterday indoors. So I brought it.

I tested it out at home first and intonation is decent through the usual range of our rep.

MTS out almost 2 inches and others all the way in.

The day started out at about 50 degrees and I had to shove the MTS in all the way. Weather great and got a lot done afterwards.

I like it.

A LOT!!

Looks as if this one is made at night after the Jupiter line closes…

https://www.gear4music.com/us/en/Woodwi ... music/1AED

Coppergate??

I’ve been wrong plenty of times before, but I believe I may have been the one who made that curlycue upper mouthpipe for that helicon.

Unless I’m wrong, it formerly belonged to someone in Wisconsin, had not been refinished - at that time, and my solution did away with a crazy-long main tuning slide extension, which wasn’t even long enough to solve the pitch problem (ie. a Selmer, USA B-flat sousaphone, after-fitted with a very short straight bell).