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One of my favorite guitar performers anywhere any time is Leo Kotke, whom I have heard in person several times. I never, ever, had any issue with the tuning of his guitars. Because he could hear. Someone who can't hear and likes it, ok, be that way, but don't expect to lend me your guitar and have me play it sounding like broken glass being run over by a fork lift. It's in the same category as those high school band directors who sit next to each other in the community band and you can hear the beats rattling the chandeliers. Just because you are accustomed to hearing it wrong doesn't make it right, nor do you have to lend me your guitar if you don't want to.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:29 pm One of my favorite guitar performers anywhere any time is Leo Kotke, whom I have heard in person several times. I never, ever, had any issue with the tuning of his guitars. Because he could hear. Someone who can't hear and likes it, ok, be that way, but don't expect to lend me your guitar and have me play it sounding like broken glass being run over by a fork lift. It's in the same category as those high school band directors who sit next to each other in the community band and you can hear the beats rattling the chandeliers. Just because you are accustomed to hearing it wrong doesn't make it right, nor do you have to lend me your guitar if you don't want to.

Tuning and rhythmical integrity with the basses - particularly if they are a fine section - overrules those things with the trombone section. At such times where there is disagreement, I must become the trombonists’ section leader.
That having been said, there really should never be disagreement.

pjv wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:14 am In an Orchestra I find that as tuba plagers we sometimes can get into a moral bind when we our playing tutti with the brass section
And at the same time
Unison with the basses.
Not only as far as tuning is concerned but also with rhythmic integrity.

So making it work usually means
1. Uh, just make it work
2. But sometimes verbalizing this discomfort in an effort to hopefully improve the situation.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:47 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:40 pmslide pulling/pushing only helps with the resonance and timbre.

I suspect that Gene has been misunderstood (or better: UNDER-understood) by many who quote him.

Let me ATTEMPT to speak for him , and then allow him to email me (he knows where I am, whether-or-not he wants to) and tell me to come back here and say that (what I'm about to type below) is not-at-all what he meant:

"I can 'lip' most any pitch in tune, but shortening or lengthening the air column to vibrate more sympathetically with the desired/lips-produced pitch sounds better, allows the instrument to resonate much more nicely, and also tends to produce more volume of sound for the same effort."

ie: "stuff that's known"

Isn't that what I said, more succinctly?

@Mary Ann Oh, someone got her going again!! Thanks!!

iiipopes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:47 am

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:47 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:40 pmslide pulling/pushing only helps with the resonance and timbre.

I suspect that Gene has been misunderstood (or better: UNDER-understood) by many who quote him.

Let me ATTEMPT to speak for him , and then allow him to email me (he knows where I am, whether-or-not he wants to) and tell me to come back here and say that (what I'm about to type below) is not-at-all what he meant:

"I can 'lip' most any pitch in tune, but shortening or lengthening the air column to vibrate more sympathetically with the desired/lips-produced pitch sounds better, allows the instrument to resonate much more nicely, and also tends to produce more volume of sound for the same effort."

ie: "stuff that's known"

Isn't that what I said, more succinctly?

My F tuba isn't "dead center" on every pitch in it's entire range, but (remarkably) nothing is "bad". Further it's ridiculously/luxuriously flexible, so that I don't ever feel compelled to pull any slides for tone-or-whatever. (It's so flexible, that I haven't completely decided/ascertained what some of its individual named-note tendencies actually are - even after four decades.)
That having been said, when I play it I had better have my own personal $h!t together, because it will gladly allow me to place any named-pitch anywhere within an extremely wide range...and resonate just as well.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:16 am My F tuba isn't "dead center" on every pitch in it's entire range, but (remarkably) nothing is "bad". Further it's ridiculously/luxuriously flexible, so that I don't ever feel compelled to pull any slides for tone-or-whatever. (It's so flexible, that I haven't completely decided/ascertained what some of its individual named-note tendencies actually are - even after four decades.)
That having been said, when I play it I had better have my own personal $h!t together, because it will gladly allow me to place any named-pitch anywhere within an extremely wide range...and resonate just as well.

^^^IT’S TRUE. ALL OF IT.^^^

1. Knowing what precise pitch needs to be played is the beginning of playing in tune
2. Doing what's necessary to produce that pitch, whether it be from deliberate thought or conditioned reflex comes next; you can't expect a brass instrument to do it for you
3. An instrument that makes 2 difficult is a huge, unnecessary distraction from making music

Three Valves wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:45 am @Mary Ann Oh, someone got her going again!! Thanks!!

Moi?

I still contend that trying to match pitches without first matching balances (volume) and tone color is rather pointless. When you go to match someone else's pitch, you need to match volume and timbre (roughly) - all simultaneously - as well. Easier said that done, but good ensemble playing is more than just dinging the A = 440 bell. Ever noticed when a band has six or seven mediocre (or poor) sax players, you not only get about nine different pitches, you get about 11 different volume levels and tone colorings as well. It can be an almost impossible situation. You have to get them to match volume first, then work on timbre and tuning.

The band director who just retired from Cabrillo College in Aptos, Ca was really good at tuning exercises involving intervals and drones. "Matching exercises" might be a more accurate description, because player's would automatically try to match volume and tone as well. It was very much like what Bill Caballero is doing on the Youtube video here.

All those comments are very valid for sectional balance/timber, but not so much orchestra-wide (just one easy example: horn section chords accompanying an oboe solo), as both loudness and timbre can vary greatly across sections in the same musical passages.
Those things can even vary within a section, if one of the section members is playing a solo line.
Having been around (ie. “old”), I have noticed that more wind band music seems to be more corporate - regarding these aspects.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:33 am I have noticed that more wind band music seems to be more corporate - regarding these aspects.

These Disney mash ups gotta go.

More Marches, Rondos and Mazurkas please!!

Three Valves wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:06 am
These Disney mash ups gotta go.

More Marches, Rondos and Mazurkas please!!

Overkill on Disney $#!+. Unless it's a kiddie concert, there are tons of other crowd-pleasing tunes besides the typical "mouse" poop. I'd take the old classic band arrangements of Broadway shows over mouse poop any day (My Fair Lady, anyone?). And all the Sousa, King, Fillmore, etc. (popular and obscure) you want to add to the mix.