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KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 pm My King plays MUCH different without Lacquer than it did with the Eastlake Orange on it. Had 3-4 people say the same thing without asking. If it's the darker sound someone is looking for or after, then they should..otherwise leave it alone.

With all due respect, these claims come without a hint of any sort of controlled perception testing, and are so subject to unintended bias that one must be careful about drawing conclusions. The player knows whether the instrument was stripped, and can't help but be biased by that, even if the listeners are behind a screen. And the distance of time between lacquered and stripped defies any plain aural comparison. Our aural memory for tonal subtleties lasts only a few seconds. Also, removing lacquer is usually related to repairs, so it's hard to know what caused a perception, even if it's repeatable.

Of course, you wrote that it "plays" differently, rather than sounding different, and that is even more subject to unconscious bias.

When I see the famed European artists come over to venues like the Army Workshop and play whatever they pick up out of the booth of the company sponsoring them, and then absolutely kicking butt with it, I think, well, maybe we make too much out of all this. I compare that with some fine college faculty soloists whose instruments have a lot of tweaks like these, and I often think that the difference between them and those European artists playing stock Miraphones and Meinl-Westons isn't the lacquer. Or even the tuba, beyond basic type, size, and design/construction competence.

But even if an effect is a placebo, if it changes the way we approach the instrument for the better, it counts.

Rick "been a long time since engaging this particular rant" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:00 am

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 pm My King plays MUCH different without Lacquer than it did with the Eastlake Orange on it. Had 3-4 people say the same thing without asking. If it's the darker sound someone is looking for or after, then they should..otherwise leave it alone.

With all due respect, these claims come without a hint of any sort of controlled perception testing, and are so subject to unintended bias that one must be careful about drawing conclusions. The player knows whether the instrument was stripped, and can't help but be biased by that, even if the listeners are behind a screen. And the distance of time between lacquered and stripped defies any plain aural comparison. Our aural memory for tonal subtleties lasts only a few seconds. Also, removing lacquer is usually related to repairs, so it's hard to know what caused a perception, even if it's repeatable.

Of course, you wrote that it "plays" differently, rather than sounding different, and that is even more subject to unconscious bias.

When I see the famed European artists come over to venues like the Army Workshop and play whatever they pick up out of the booth of the company sponsoring them, and then absolutely kicking butt with it, I think, well, maybe we make too much out of all this. I compare that with some fine college faculty soloists whose instruments have a lot of tweaks like these, and I often think that the difference between them and those European artists playing stock Miraphones and Meinl-Westons isn't the lacquer. Or even the tuba, beyond basic type, size, and design/construction competence.

But even if an effect is a placebo, if it changes the way we approach the instrument for the better, it counts.

Rick "been a long time since engaging this particular rant" Denney

Plays/Sounds/Tomato-TomATO...The horn had modifications done to it before the lacquer was stripped, and played by the same 3-4 people before it was ONLY stripped (all different mouthpieces and different acoustical situations), then again after with the same conclusions as I mentioned above so the test is good enough for me to make my conclusion on it and confirm what I know to be true. I've owned 5 different Kings in 3 years time trying to find the right one (3x 1241's & 2x 2341's), 2 of those were stripped to raw brass, 1 was silver and 2 still had lacquer......the 2 stripped horns just played and had a darker timbre to them. All were stock except my current horn so that rules out mechanical upgrades or repairs before/after testing causing a difference.

My friend's King, same year build had only the lacquer stripped and no modifcations recently as well and plays with a darker timbre than before with the Eastlake Orange on it as well. This was also confirmed by 2 people in two different locations of testing. Don't the let a series of scientific hypothesis' skew what you inherently know to be true otherwise and can prove. It's nothing worth arguing about for sure and I will go about my day still telling those who ask, that it plays and sounds much darker than before.

I'm not a tech, but I do have some opinions. :)

In the grand scheme of things, there are coarse effects, and fine effects. I see this question as looking for coarse effects that make a difference noticeable (or even transformative) enough that it isn't subject to being overrun by perceptual bias. But we have to be careful about our perceptions, which are subject to unconscious biases that we cannot overcome by force of will, even if we think we can.

Valves that work, slides that work really well, water keys that don't leak and are located where water collects so that we don't have to manhandle the instrument to eject water, and geometry that support reasonably balanced biomechanics are all course effects. A tuba that is the right shape and size, and has a good scale are coarse effects, too, but those aren't easy (read: possible) to fix on the tech's bench unless there is some trauma that needs to be corrected. Leaks in particular fall into that category.

Once more thing: a mouthpiece receiver that accommodates the set of mouthpieces that might suit the instrument and player. I hate being limited to a mouthpiece I don't like because of an odd-size receiver (really old Bessons are the poster child for this issue, but so are really old Alexanders, though at the other end of the size range).

I see a lot of the tweaks to tubas similarly to the poetry that surrounds so-called high-end audio, 99.9% of which I think is explained by what's in the player's mind rather than any real difference in the apparatus. That doesn't mean it doesn't count, but it probably won't last past the novelty phase, after which we still end up sounding like ourselves, and will thus get back on the tweak merry-go-round.

Of course, the coarsest effect of all is the player's musicianship and technique, and once an instrument is competent, time is better spent working on those two things. That assumes, of course, that one actually wants the biggest improvement for the time and money spent (which is not always the case, even for pros).

When I took my Holton to Joe a few years ago for a cheapie play-ready overhaul, I asked him to focus on: Valves (replating to restore them to like-new), slide alignment, major dent removal, general repairs (ironing out this and that in the bell and body), and shortening the first-valve slide to give me more adjustment range. Anything else I might have done beyond that would have been purely cosmetic, and the budget didn't support stuff that was purely cosmetic. Those changes were enough such that any fault that remained was related to design (and not repairable) or to the player (and not repairable by the tech). It did not sound noticeably better, but it sure was more fun to play.

(One final note: We use the word "placebo" as if the effect itself is not real. It's real. But it's not caused by what we think it's caused by, and is caused by our response to our own expectations. That may lead to a breakthrough, in which case it might be transformative. But usually not. Gene Pokorny won his audition to the CSO using the instrument he brought, not the CSO York.)

Rick "not wanting to harsh anyone's favorite placebo, but calling it like he sees it" Denney

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:21 am ...Don't the let a series of scientific hypothesis' skew what you inherently know to be true otherwise and can prove...

That statement, of course, goes both ways.

Rick "just not wanting people to chase rainbows when they can't play two-octave scales in tune" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:54 am

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:21 am ...Don't the let a series of scientific hypothesis' skew what you inherently know to be true otherwise and can prove...

That statement, of course, goes both ways.

Rick "just not wanting people to chase rainbows when they can't play two-octave scales in tune" Denney

I think my experiment just about covered the Science and the Intuition side of things all in one fell swoop luckily.

King "who thinks these quoted sign-off's are lame" Tuba1241X

He should speak for himself, but Mr. G.P. has told me - more than two or three times - that his auditions (at least when he played the first portions of various auditions - by himself: prior to the parts of auditions where he played with an orchestra's trombone section) were played on a 186.

I attended a recent solo recital of his (ie. listened to a "retirement-age" man play like a thirty-year-old man) whereby he played a c. two-minute piece on his big Yamaha C and forty-five minutes to an hour of additional music on a Miraphone F tuba.

re: "great big tubas"
I've only encountered one model - so far (made for a short time, and now: seemingly sorta semi-discontinued) - that's easy enough (for me) to play whereby I'm only thinking about "the music" and not-at-all about "the tuba".
I've posted about that model often enough whereas it seems silly to continue to mention it.

re: appearance
bleated over-and-over, "I only care about the sound."
bullsh!t, based on over five decades of interaction with other tuba players and other instrumentalists

Three Valves wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:11 am

iiipopes wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:12 am On a Conn 3-valve sousaphone (a real Conn, not the fiberglass instrument that is really a King that is now labeled 36K, because the plumbing has different geometry), convert the upper loop of the 1st valve circuit to a moveable slide so you can adjust intonation on valve combinations, especially C & low F 1+3.

If the bell has overring, install a rim guard made from clear plastic tubing slit the length of the tubing.

On a rotary instrument, have your tech tailor the paddles to match your hand ergonomics.

Have the leadpipe & receiver adjusted (angled) for your embouchure, especially if you have an overbite.

...and larger finger buttons??

Conn finger buttons fit me just fine.

...

peterbas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:56 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 am

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:54 am

That statement, of course, goes both ways.

Rick "just not wanting people to chase rainbows when they can't play two-octave scales in tune" Denney

I think my experiment just about covered the Science and the Intuition side of things all in one fell swoop luckily.

King "who thinks these quoted sign-off's are lame" Tuba1241X

Our hearing memory is only minutes long. You can not compare a tuba before and after stripping because it simply takes to long and the correct memory of the sound is long gone.
In the audio scene there is a lot of talk about people with golden ears but they all are getting owned by the easy way of being able to performer ABX hearing test. A recent test of speakers in very different sizes and construction but all being digitally prepared of having the same loudness and frequency curve in the middle frequency range confirmed that anybody could detect a difference between the totally different speakers.

I guess I sit outside the bubble of normality then. (Ask any of my friends, they'll confirm) Thanks for your opinion though.

...

peterbas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:13 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:03 pm

peterbas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:56 pm

Our hearing memory is only minutes long. You can not compare a tuba before and after stripping because it simply takes to long and the correct memory of the sound is long gone.
In the audio scene there is a lot of talk about people with golden ears but they all are getting owned by the easy way of being able to performer ABX hearing test. A recent test of speakers in very different sizes and construction but all being digitally prepared of having the same loudness and frequency curve in the middle frequency range confirmed that anybody could detect a difference between the totally different speakers.

I guess I sit outside the bubble of normality then. (Ask any of my friends, they'll confirm) Thanks for your opinion though.

There has been a test with trumpet players on giving points on something like 15 different sound related attributes of different people playing the trumpet.
I don't recall the correct number but only on 3 to 5 points there was a significant statistical result. The other points where just as good as guessing.

Trumpets are different than tubas, and tubas are tubas from other tubas. I've been playing King 2341's since I was 14 on and off, my experience with them is fairly vast, I 'd step out and say I would know what they play like, sound like, react like pretty well. If it was an unfamiliar horn model which I only knew of one and played only one and did the same experiment with I wouldn't give an opinion.

Your opinions are wrong!

All of you!

...

peterbas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:24 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:38 pm

peterbas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:13 pm

There has been a test with trumpet players on giving points on something like 15 different sound related attributes of different people playing the trumpet.
I don't recall the correct number but only on 3 to 5 points there was a significant statistical result. The other points where just as good as guessing.

Trumpets are different than tubas, and tubas are tubas from other tubas. I've been playing King 2341's since I was 14 on and off, my experience with them is fairly vast, I 'd step out and say I would know what they play like, sound like, react like pretty well. If it was an unfamiliar horn model which I only knew of one and played only one and did the same experiment with I wouldn't give an opinion.

Try doing a AB(X) test of some recordings of different King's and post the recordings so everybody can take the same test and then we will look at the numbers. Then we will see if you can show of your 'golden ears' or that you are just fooling yourself like millions before you did (including me).

Good luck finding those recordings...if you do let me know, I'd like to hear them myself.

...

Stripping the Lacquer off of a Tuba doesn’t seem to match well with the original post, and I’d have thought it would devalue an instrument too. As far as I understand it there’s a widespread belief amongst Brass Players that thick lacquer does (marginally) dampen an instrument’s sound output, but relatively very few players strip lacquer off of their instruments.

I don’t use a playing stand but maybe that’s a worthwhile change and particularly so for the larger instruments. Being able to focus on the music without having to think about physically supporting the instrument might have merit.

Someone mentioned Finger Buttons and a logical response (based on professional experience) was given - I’m good with that response. If someone wants special FB’s then no doubt they can, at a significant cost, be fabricated by a suitably skilled Technician. On a similar vein old Tubas occasionally come with a Button missing; I’m interested to know if the threads in Piston Valves are standardised. The available replacements might need some adaptation, but it’s a pity to let an old instrument go unplayed for want of a simple part.

In my experience...

Worth it:
* Having Rotax valves cut down to be more like regular rotary valves
* Adding a water key to make life easier
* Replacing a leadpipe (for any reason)

Mixed:
* Replacing valve linkages
* Stripping finishes (usually for appearance/vanity)
* Significant disassembly to remove dents

Typically not worth it... and often vehemently discouraged by repair-people:
* Adding a valve
* Straight-up relacquering

...

Maybe next the great Dutch Tuba Czar will give a lecture about tone rings...remember, there's "paper" stats and there's "real world". Oh and paper tigers

peterbas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:21 pm

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:44 am Stripping the Lacquer off of a Tuba doesn’t seem to match well with the original post, and I’d have thought it would devalue an instrument too. As far as I understand it there’s a widespread belief amongst Brass Players that thick lacquer does (marginally) dampen an instrument’s sound output, but relatively very few players strip lacquer off of their instruments.

Here research about a free trumpet bell and a very heavily damped one.
Very short: dampening the bell has an effect on the sound by changing the impedance of the instrument and changing some resonance frequencies.
The sound directly radiated from the vibrating bell seems to low in level to alter the sound in the far field.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-T ... 6_49638601

The contribution of brass vibration to trumpet sound, especially played loud, is quite a bit different than with tubas.

Rick "reminded of Schilke's not-blind blind tests of the effects of finish on audible damping" Denney