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Nworbekim wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:35 pm So, feeling the horn vibrate when I play is a bad thing?

I guess it depends on your "druthers". And depends on the vibration. I do like to feel the vibration of a beautiful sonorous tone. I was looking to darken my sound to blend better with the BBb horns.

I play to the hall. So if the hall resonates, Im happy. The tuba resonating might be an antipattern.

Also I dont play outside.

"Yeah well, thats just like my opinion man."

The oscillations which take place inside a brasswind instrument can be very strong, upward of 10-12 or even more ATU. (Atmospheric pressure, or air pressure. It is the force exerted on a surface by the air above it as gravity pulls it to Earth. Atmospheric pressure is commonly measured with a barometer. ... One atmosphere is 1,013 millibars, or 760 millimeters (29.92 inches) of mercury.)

What the listener hears is just 3-5% of the total energy involved. When metal vibrates, the sound energy is simply turned into heat. "Hand made" instruments have excellent balance between the thickness and temper of the metal. This provides excellent response and fine tonal composition. Manufacture of such instruments is an art.

Most production instruments use body parts made up with hydralically-expanded tubing. They are generally rather heavy, contain and project the sound strongly, with little flexing of the metal. If anything, the strength of the oscillations can be felt near the top of a bell, below the point at which the bellflare begins. This effect requires an experienced hand but can be quite useful; for example when testing mouthpieces.

My first teacher, Harold McDonald of the Pittsburgh Symphony, once mentioned to a neighbor that he was tubist with the orchestra. The neighbor responded: "That´s nice, what do you do for a living?". Some time later, the same question was presented. Harold´s resonse: "I produce vibrations." The person asking inquired as to the company with which he was employed." Harold again: "I produce highly-specialized low frequency oscillations for the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra."

This response is rather generalized. The message is simply that we should produce those "highly-specialized vibrations" for the musical public.

Bob Tucci

punch editing my post after realizing I have nothing to add to the previous post.

As long as they don't make any noises - and aren't detrimental to ease of playing - I try to ignore the physical things that happen in relation to the sonic things.

That having been said...
I have only chosen instruments whereby (and put them in playing condition so that) physical distractions offered are absolutely minimal, and so that I'm barely aware of the equipment.
I'm not much of a multitask-er, and distractions - particularly, when playing music - don't encourage my best work.

That having been said, I believe that a thin-wall instrument - which feels vibrant, when played - would be a characteristic that I could easily ignore.

"effect"...?? (I suspect something near zero.)
"affect"...?? (as little or as much as the player chooses to allow to occur)

Jperry1466 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:09 pm Meinl-Weston tubas used to come with a soft plastic ring around the bell that seemed to cut out some of the ringing (like the belt around the bell mentioned above). On mine, it kept some of my notes (like 3rd line D) from responding as easily as the other notes. Now that I have a Mack 410, I wanted to cut out some of the ringing as well as have a bell rim protector. I made one from 3/16" clear plastic tubing from the hardware store. Lots of cutting and fitting involved. It seemed to make no difference in note response on the Mack.

My Symphonie came with a plastic bell protector (IDK if it was on there when originally sold new in 1974). I haven't thought to take it off just to see if it makes a difference. I'll likely use that tuba on a bunch of outdoor stuff, so unless there's a huge difference, I'm apt to leave it on for protection. There was a protector ring on my Rudy 3/4 CC I bought used back in the 80's (w/hard case for $1800 :shock: ). I eventually took it off, but I don't remember it making a huge difference either way.

Regardless, I'll do some experimenting this evening.

bloke wrote:
"effect"...?? (I suspect something near zero.)
"affect"...?? (as little or as much as the player chooses to allow to occur)

Agreed. I like a tuba that is a little lively in my hands—that works synergistically with music-making for me. Or maybe it just makes it more fun to play.

But too much is a distraction. And too little also becomes noticeable.

Rick “effecting a positive affect about Joe’s conclusion” Denney

Someday I want to run another audio spectrum analysis of my tubas with and without the caps. It's been 20 years since I've done that. The results were very interesting, and in my mind, conclusive that the caps did... something.

Whether it was something positive was left to the mind of the listener

Once again I'll mention that anecdotal experiments I've conducted on my own horns (lacquer/stripped, light/heavy weight) have led me to the conclusion that any effect is limited to the immediate area and in not carried into a hall (or possibly even the conductor). So the audience does not hear it. But if you and your section do, and you play better and more confidently because of it... it's worth it's weight in gold!

Just wanted to add that, if anything actually vibrates on my tuba when I play it, I assume my tuba is broken.

"Yeah, well thats just like my opinion man"

Jperry1466 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:45 am

Nworbekim wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:35 pm So, feeling the horn vibrate when I play is a bad thing?

I guess it depends on your "druthers". And depends on the vibration. I do like to feel the vibration of a beautiful sonorous tone. I was looking to darken my sound to blend better with the BBb horns.

i thought i responded to this, earlier this morning but i guess i pressed the wrong button... anyway... the vibration i'm feeling is in the main tubing of the horn, where my hands/arms are. nothing's rattling or broken. it's like the vibrations felt in an acoustic wooden instrument. i thought that was a good thing... i love feeling my guitars resonating. i hate playing a slab of lifeless wood that depends on pickups to amplify the strings. even the few electric guitars i have are hollow body or chambered.

so i assumed my tubas resonating was good... it showed they were responding to my playing. i like the feeling, it happens mostly in the upper and upper middle registers.

Some people feel that a tuba that vibrates to the extend that a player feels it in physical contact is wasting sound energy that does not carry into the hall. I suppose that could be true, but to me it's just a resonating surface that adds to the fat part of the tone.

However, if I can't feel vibration in the bugle of the horn, I don't feel that I'm getting as much vibration from my lips as I should. Vibration in the horn is a sign that I'm getting a solider, more resonant tone.

GC wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:05 pm ...
However, if I can't feel vibration in the bugle of the horn, I don't feel that I'm getting as much vibration from my lips as I should. Vibration in the horn is a sign that I'm getting a solider, more resonant tone.

edit: said something that didn't make much sense, so I've removed it

Nworbekim wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:08 pm i thought i responded to this, earlier this morning but i guess i pressed the wrong button... anyway... the vibration i'm feeling is in the main tubing of the horn, where my hands/arms are. nothing's rattling or broken. it's like the vibrations felt in an acoustic wooden instrument. i thought that was a good thing... i love feeling my guitars resonating. i hate playing a slab of lifeless wood that depends on pickups to amplify the strings. even the few electric guitars i have are hollow body or chambered.

I completely agree with what you're saying here. The whole instrument resonates through vibrations. My Meinl played better without the ring, much more resonant with the vibrations although the sound seemed a little bit brighter. The ring seems to make very little difference either way on the Mack. Again, I was looking to "darken" (dull?) the sound to blend better with my BBb cohorts. One vibration that does bother me on the Mack is that certain notes/frequencies cause the pipe between the lead pipe and the valves to vibrate such that when I touch it, it feels like a vibrator in my hand (because of the thinner Chinese brass?). I tune with my 1st valve slide so my hand rests on that pipe much of the time. It doesn't seem to bother the sound; just bothers me to feel that much vibration.

40+ years ago in grad school at Ky. I did a research project on this very subject. I had asked David Kuehn (at North Texas) about it, and he said they had done some experimenting with wrapping a belt around the bell. I had a music education research professor who claimed that it didn't make a difference what material an instrument was made of; it was the internal dimensions. I asked him if he thought a concrete block with internal dimensions identical to my tuba would sound the same, and he said, "yes". I pointed out that some tubas were silver, some lacquer, and some raw brass. Anyway, I did a blind behind-the-screen test using the ring, no ring, and a belt with him, Rex Conner, and Harry Clarke (the band director) as judges. The result was Clarke and Conner had the same conclusions as I did, and the professor gave opposite answers on every question. I got a B in the class.

So if we can just come up with concrete tubas, we can save a lot of money.

I'd say your professor had not read this (7th paragraph) https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Brass_Clinic.html. I would imaging that a concrete tuba would be similar to a lead trumpet: no material resonance. But I've been badly wrong before.

upper thigh callouses

GC wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:26 am I'd say your professor had not read this (7th paragraph) https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Brass_Clinic.html. I would imaging that a concrete tuba would be similar to a lead trumpet: no material resonance. But I've been badly wrong before.

I am quite sure he had not read this since it didn't fit his way of thinking. My class was in 1974 so don't know if that article had been written yet. But common sense would tell us he was wrong. He "claimed" to be a trumpet player, but there had to be a reason he was teaching Music Education Research Methods, and I never saw him with a trumpet.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:24 pm upper thigh callouses

The tuba is a "sound cannon", which means its designed to "send sound" somewhere else. And *not* have the sound explode inside the instrument like a hand grenade.

So: although its not necessarily "bad" for a tuba to vibrate in your hands. It would be somewhat unsettling unless your holding a piggy, which does this quite a lot, or you are playing so loud you are "ripping off the bell" of the tuba. In which case you are either playing in a bar, or a parade.

So short answer, a vibey tuba is not something I look for in a tuba. Same with motorcycles.

I prefer the instrument to resonate. Which is why I tend to gravitate toward the "live" feeling instruments that I do. I get better feedback that way. I'm not a fan of a "dead" feeling instrument by any means. When I say "Live" as an example I mean Alex/Rudy/Miraphone/handmade Fafner/Cerveny/my Conn etc. When I say "dead" I mean something like the piston Willson 3050. Which gives me no feedback whatsoever. I know "play by sound, not by feel" but sound is vibration. An instrument that resonates, allows me to "feel" the sound.