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How about reading chord changes from a concert lead sheet on an Eb tuba? I have recently started playing an Eb tuba and am required to "invent" bass lines from sheets of chord changes. (I often play in a couple of 20s and 30s swing bands.)

My big question is this:
If I were to hand a sheet of chord changes to an Eb tuba player to invent his/her own bass lines, would it be best to notate them in Eb as you would for an alto sax player?

This is all new to me, having read concert (C) and Bb changes for decades (I also play trumpet). Thanks in advance for your help with this!

Concert would be my vote, assuming you don't expect to be reading Eb-transposed notation anywhere.

TuBop wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:16 am How about reading chord changes from a concert lead sheet on an Eb tuba? I have recently started playing an Eb tuba and am required to "invent" bass lines from sheets of chord changes. (I often play in a couple of 20s and 30s swing bands.)

My big question is this:
If I were to hand a sheet of chord changes to an Eb tuba player to invent his/her own bass lines, would it be best to notate them in Eb as you would for an alto sax player?

This is all new to me, having read concert (C) and Bb changes for decades (I also play trumpet). Thanks in advance for your help with this!

I don't even understand the question. Why would it make a difference what key of tuba the player has? A C chord is a C chord. ???

I think the issue is whether said Eb player is used to reading treble (BBB) or bass clef.
Bass clef is normally concert pitch and would require no transposition.
Treble clef British Brass Band is transposed, and for the player to think in concert pitch on their horn would require transposition.

windshieldbug wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:53 am I think the issue is whether said Eb player is used to reading treble (BBB) or bass clef.
Bass clef is normally concert pitch and would require no transposition.
Treble clef British Brass Band is transposed, and for the player to think in concert pitch on their horn would require transposition.

The overwhelming majority of peeps in these ensembles read "trumpet" music, yes?
Is the bass trombonist (ok: percussionist) an exception?

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:08 am

windshieldbug wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:53 am I think the issue is whether said Eb player is used to reading treble (BBB) or bass clef.
Bass clef is normally concert pitch and would require no transposition.
Treble clef British Brass Band is transposed, and for the player to think in concert pitch on their horn would require transposition.

The overwhelming majority of peeps in these ensembles read "trumpet" music, yes?
Is the bass trombonist (ok: percussionist) an exception?

I’m sure you meant “cornet”, right? :)

And yes, bass trombone is the exception, reading concert bass clef. Even the tenor trombones read Bb treble clef. When I joined a brass band 15 months ago, with only a C tuba, I chose to play the Eb parts, figuring those would be easier for me to read than the Bb parts. Both of our Bb bass players manage to read just fine playing C tubas (I.e., not using “trumpet” fingerings).

If I'd meant "cornet", I wouldn't have used apostrophes, as cornet is actually what brass band musicians play, but most who read these posts (a bunch of unsophisticated/unschooled colonists of questionable breeding) think of music written in that manner as trumpet parts.

windshieldbug wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:53 am I think the issue is whether said Eb player is used to reading treble (BBB) or bass clef.
Bass clef is normally concert pitch and would require no transposition.
Treble clef British Brass Band is transposed, and for the player to think in concert pitch on their horn would require transposition.

Well, that assumes the player reads by fingering and not by pitch. There really are people out there who read by concert pitch with a movable clef, and it wouldn't matter to those people how the pitches were presented on the page, if they could read that clef.

Understood.

Music notation the Dutch way:
https://share.kpnmail.nl/ajax/share/097 ... MzY/MzYvMQ

I created a pdf of the first page of the march militaire francais:
C tuba in concert pitch bas clef
Bb tuba transposed part bass clef
Eb tuba transposed part bass clef.

And then there are the Brassband parts wich are the same as the transposed Bb and Eb parts but in treble clef.

Happy Newyear
Gelukkig nieuwjaar
Bon noel

Doc wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:49 pm

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:05 pmIt is SO much easier to know what pitches the dots represent and just play them on the instrument you have in your hands.

^^^This is the best way.^^^

But folks often want an easy button.

There are some mental tricks that can help in particular situations.

At first you find yourself thinking with each note, what key is my instrument? What key is the music? What interval gets me to the next note? &c. It is impossible to think all that out at playing speed. But you quickly learn to get the feel and then you just know what buttons to push to get the right note.

My background is mostly playing a Bb transposed part with a Bb instrument. Every time I play my Bb tuba using concert pitch music I sort of have to transpose. A friend who switched from trumpet to tuba uses a C tuba so he could read the notes as is. But I find using a Bb tuba with band music puts me in fingering patterns that I am more familiar with. I would rather have the familiar patterns than try to get a written note to match a fingering. I’ve done enough transposition that it doesn’t bother me.

Thinking of everything in concert pitch from the beginning has saved me a ton of headache with all the various instrument keys, octaves, and transpositions floating around in my head. I can do the "I don't know this instrument key so I'm just going to mash the buttons down according to printed C being open" thing well enough to get by if I need to, but most of the time it's much easier to just think in C and learn each transposition as its own clef. That way it doesn't matter what instrument I'm holding, I can play what's in front of me. I've had to do some very odd ones.

Oddly, working in this way does not make me wish everything was written in C. Pretty much the opposite actually...I can't STAND concert pitch scores. Horn parts showing up in C really messes with my "horn is in horn clef" brain.

The biggest downside to this approach is that I can't improvise over transposed chord changes to save my life. Brain immediately short circuits.

I explain often to people that the way I "read" music is I hear it. Just like, I assume, when you read the words on this page, you hear them in your head, which is how you could read this aloud if you wanted; when I see notes on a page I hear them in my head. The clef just determines which dots I hear how. And then when I play an instrument, it's the same way. If I know what pitch I want it to play, because I hear that pitch based on the dot on the music, I just have it play that pitch. So if I hear a G on the page, and I know how to make the instrument in my hands sing a G, that's all there is to it. No thinking involved; it's a direct translation, just as if you were to read this aloud. EVEN IF I PUT IT IN CAPS, which is like a different clef, you can still read it aloud, because you can read CAPS as well as lower case. Or italics, or --- you get it, right? I can't figure out how people play who have to think about it, really.

To some extent people will tend to see it that way, who learn to read music in choir and then on instruments. No one gets a transposing larynx.

As opposed to starting with school band. I guess most tuba players (in the US, anyway) have run into someone who can't really come to terms with the idea that you have a Bb tuba but when you play "C", out comes C. (If it's a woodwind player, ask them what "key" the bassoon is "in.")

Whatever type of instrument someone plays, it's really good to be able to "slide the capo" anywhere needs to go.

Again, I'm not any sort of savant at all, but probably can read more different clefs and transpositions - while playing the tuba - than some people. It sure opens up more possibilities and allows for more variety in choices of pieces to play in practice and musical self-amusement.

I realize this is redundant, but just being able to pick up a B-flat, C, E-flat, or F tuba, and play each one in bass clef, treble clef, or B flat treble clef opens up all sorts of possibilities for pretending to play this or that tuba while pretending to read this or that clef. The "pretending" system has flaws, but it's better than nothing.

donn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:26 am ... (If it's a woodwind player, ask them what "key" the bassoon is "in.")

If you close all the holes, you get a Bb. Same as a euphonium. I never bothered to get fluent reading Bb treble clef parts; there were bass clarinets for that.

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:47 pm

donn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:26 am ... (If it's a woodwind player, ask them what "key" the bassoon is "in.")

If you close all the holes, you get a Bb. Same as a euphonium. I never bothered to get fluent reading Bb treble clef parts; there were bass clarinets for that.

If you close all the holes in a euphonium, including the bell, I don't think any sound will come out.

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:47 pm If you close all the holes, you get a Bb. Same as a euphonium.

Woodwinds don't have an analogue to the "open" pitch series. If you "close all the holes", old bari saxes will be in Db, newer ones all C, but they're all considered to be "Eb". The fingering is the same, there's just extra stuff at the bottom, and there's sure extra stuff at the bottom of the bassoon keywork. To my way of looking at it, the bassoon is an "F" woodwind.

donn wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:00 am Woodwinds don't have an analogue to the "open" pitch series. If you "close all the holes", old bari saxes will be in Db, newer ones all C, but they're all considered to be "Eb". The fingering is the same, there's just extra stuff at the bottom, and there's sure extra stuff at the bottom of the bassoon keywork. To my way of looking at it, the bassoon is an "F" woodwind.

Yeah, maybe F. Or maybe G, since you don’t overblow the low F for the octave higher. Or, …, C, since you get a C major scale without any sharp/flat modifier keys. It’s pretty arbitrary.