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Thanks, all, for the many good recommendations. Here's what I get out of this so far:

1. 188 might be a better upgrade than a 186, but not gonna happen for $4000, maybe $5000.

2. Some folks think an older small bell 186 is better than a newer, larger bell 186 and might be a good upgrade.

3. A M-W 30, 32 or 33 plays darker than a 186, but might be about the same size sound and mmight have a few more intonation quirks.

4. Going larger than a 188 means a "real" 5/4 tuba and that comes with more intonation quirks.

5. Nobody mentions any of the Cerveny models...the Piggy (683?) or the "5/4" 601 as alternatives.

6. Altho' have seen a VMI horn mentioned as a 186 alternative, no one mentioned that or a B&S horn...

I was surprised at #5, as I thought that the Cerveny horns might be cheap enough, but maybe more colorful than the 410.

Any other thoughts?

Since there is so much hand wringing and no tuba shindigs, you might actually do a tubaforum automobile odyssey, drive to several of our homes, and play some models. Our opinions don’t count for spit. It’s your money/tuba.

Are there reasons (besides price) to prefer an old 188 over a new one? Or is that a model that continues to be well made?

Yeah, too bad no tuba shindigs right now...maybe covid is going to calm down enough by the spring that things will return to a semblance of normal and there will again be "tuba shindigs." IDK about any hand-wringing...there's none here at la mia piccola casa.

I'm really pretty happy with the 410, but just wanted to know what might be the next possible step some time in the future and this thread has more or less answered that to some extent. I just spent $6000+ on my car replacing a blown engine that was only supposed to cost about $3800, so the cash isn't there to buy much unless I either finance it or pick it up through retiree side hustles. I kinda thing that is going to take a while.

Bloke, I think you are right that an auto tuba odyssey is going to be necessary and might be fun. My wife is retiring in August and she will want to travel some, so we might include some of the typical tuba merchants in our travels and I'm lucky in that my sister lives less than an hour from Dillon and Matt Walters. You're also right that it's my money and I might determine that a tuba no one has mentioned is right for me.

Truth is right now I don't feel very competent in judging tuba intonation myself, so maybe some lessons on that will be in the offing, too.

Many thanks for the help in this thread and I by no means want to shut it down if anyone has anything else to say...suggestions, pointers to tubas for sale, etc.
royjohn

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:18 pm Are there reasons (besides price) to prefer an old 188 over a new one? Or is that a model that continues to be well made?

IMHO, the 188's from the 1980's are superior horns. The current 188's are very, very good as well - but different. Not everyone thinks the older ones are BETTER, but, most would agree there is a difference (and yeah, it's hard to quantify). I think it might be best described as the older ones having a bit more depth or personality to the sound... but I'm open to other ways to describe them.

It's one of the few models I can say I would buy blind, without trying (and I have) and it's as close to point-and-click as you're going to find. I'm trying to think of another model I would buy without trying... and coming up short for another choice. It's not perfect, but, it's really good and almost ALWAYS a safe choice to bring to a gig where to you have no idea what you're going to be playing. Not everyone loves rotary valves and some people prefer a more American style of sound.

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:21 pm ...the 188's from the 1980's are superior horns. The current 188's are very, very good as well - but different. Not everyone thinks the older ones are BETTER, but, most would agree there is a difference (and yeah, it's hard to quantify). I think it might be best described as the older ones having a bit more depth or personality to the sound... but I'm open to other ways to describe them.

This is a fair assessment. Yes, it's hard to quantify - you could say they have a bit more personality, more depth, more color, more "mojo." I tried a new one, and the low range was ever-so-slightly not as tight, but it didn't grab me in quite the same way as my new-in-1987 188 did.

It's one of the few models I can say I would buy blind, without trying (and I have) and it's as close to point-and-click as you're going to find. I'm trying to think of another model I would buy without trying... and coming up short for another choice.

I have said this countless times. Miraphone is known for superior consistency, but especially with the 188. Only possibly more consistent with a 186 BBb. If you had to a buy a CC sight-unseen, the 188 is hands-down the safest bet, all other makes and models be damned.

It's not perfect, but, it's really good and almost ALWAYS a safe choice to bring to a gig where to you have no idea what you're going to be playing.

Again, this is true.

Not everyone loves rotary valves and some people prefer a more American style of sound.

Yes, but outside of being in tune and on time, the audience will have no clue and won't care.

Does anyone have audio/video comparing the 186 and 188? That might help @royjohn.

royjohn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:53 am 5. Nobody mentions any of the Cerveny models...the Piggy (683?) or the "5/4" 601 as alternatives.

6. Altho' have seen a VMI horn mentioned as a 186 alternative, no one mentioned that or a B&S horn...

5. Personally, I'm not a fan. Not sure why, but they just never really reach out to me. Some of them have been too resonant to the point where it feels like all my energy is going into making the tuba vibrate. They usually sound okay, but I've just never really enjoyed them. Or, more relevant to you, I'm not sure which model is only a little bigger than a 186. And if you ask Mark F., he'll tell you the 186 is derivative of Cerveny... so maybe there's not so much difference? I don't much like the piggy, it's too short and the bell is all up in my face. I couldn't tell you if it's more sound than a 186, because I've never held long enough to find out. And the 5/4 model 601 is a Kaiser tuba. It's huge, and easily 2 steps larger than the 186. And for intonation, control, and resonance (i.e., vibrating like crazy), I just never liked the 601. Some people sound great on them, though!

6. VMI was just a branding or something for B&S/MW, when the merger happened? Something like that? I forget... either way, I don't remember many VMI CC tubas. I had a VMI version of a MW-30, which was the bell and bows from a MW-30, with a B&S valve section. It was a really good tuba. It was also my first tuba, and as a 4-valve CC, I felt limited and sold it. The rest is history.

B&S CC tubas are kind of funny though... for a rotary CC, there aren't many options. The PT-3 and PT-4 are older models, which you may or may not find available, but they are out of production. They aren't much like the 186/8, and are both pretty mid-size -- not bigger than the 186. The B&S PT-20 exists as a rotary tuba, but is uncommon -- I think they still make it? It's also a nice tuba, but it's not much like the 186/188 either. I like them, and wouldn't mind trying another sometime.

After that, the B&S tubas just get big. The PT-6 rotary is excellent, and absolutely a step bigger than the 188, and is kind of the classic 5/4 tuba. The MRP is big too. The rotary Neptune is huge. I keep thinking there's something else I'm forgetting, but I'm not sure...

Any of the B&S tubas will be above your budget. I'd expect a good used B&S PT-20 rotary to be in the $6k to $7k range.

5. Nobody mentions any of the Cerveny models..

I've played Cerveny/Amati 681's side by side with friends' Miraphone 186's and they played and felt the same "under the bell". An advantage to Miraphone for the "feel" of the finished product and build quality. Sound wise, basically the same thing..maybe a little more character to the Miraphone. If you came across a <$2000 681 Cerveny/Amati 4/4 ...it wouldn't be the worst day of your life. I'm still recommending the discounted 188 if you can find one (not sure you play CC or BBb). I also think as Brett does about the Piggy, although I haven't heard much negative about them..I don't like bells "all up in my face" like that. The shortest horn I would own is 37''.

If you can find a Piggy that is one of the "good ones," it will be a joy to play. Unless, of course, you don't want the bell so close to your head (which is definitely a thing for some folks). Finding a "good one" is the tough part.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:15 am Baited with "188" in the subject line, and then zinged. :)

The $4,000 price point for CC tubas is, and has always been, pretty strange. It's beyond the cost of cheaper Chinese and Czech tubas, but not quite enough for the German tubas unless you get really lucky. ...

I got lucky with a West German rotary CC for $3500, but it's not 188-size. And it's not a big brand, so most sensible buyers probably assessed that it wouldn't be worth their trouble and I only got it out of ignorance. So, ... doubly lucky, I guess, since I really like the way it plays and sounds and feels.

Looks like 188s are not $4k, though.

Some of the VERY BEST of the Kalison Daryl Smith tubas are 188-like (yes, really).

I've played one or two of those things, that I would choose over a 188.

That having been said, they're getting pretty old, so even some of the best of them might also (now) be suffering from mechanical wear.

opinions of models of instruments/mouthpieces:

freak-jury questions with freak-jury answers

instruments: quite a few amazingly good ones (from $1XXX to $3X,XXX), and even more that really suck (from $1XXX to $3X,XXX)

mail-order instruments: One either needs luck, tolerance, or a readiness to flip.

DonO. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:22 pm Lee Stofer has a sweet looking MW 30 for sale right now at $3500. With a leather Reunion Blues bag. So sweet looking it made me wish I played CC. Just sayin’.

Yep. Still there.

https://tubameister.com/pre-owned-instruments/

If you get to try a 188 for a good while -- longer than a half hour in a shop -- you may find that you're no longer as happy with what you were playing before. So be careful.

jtm wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:03 pm If you get to try a 188 for a good while -- longer than a half hour in a shop -- you may find that you're no longer as happy with what you were playing before. So be careful.

Not sure what to make of this... Guess it depends what you were playing before? But, you know how I feel about the 188!

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:08 pm

jtm wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:03 pm If you get to try a 188 for a good while -- longer than a half hour in a shop -- you may find that you're no longer as happy with what you were playing before. So be careful.

Not sure what to make of this... Guess it depends what you were playing before? But, you know how I feel about the 188!

To my own admission, I read your statement about 5 times and find the wording complicated -- I'm sure it's just me. I read it as you saying you don't like the 188. Do you like the 188 or no?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:56 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:08 pm

jtm wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:03 pm If you get to try a 188 for a good while -- longer than a half hour in a shop -- you may find that you're no longer as happy with what you were playing before. So be careful.

Not sure what to make of this... Guess it depends what you were playing before? But, you know how I feel about the 188!

To my own admission, I read your statement about 5 times and find the wording complicated -- I'm sure it's just me. I read it as you saying you don't like the 188. Do you like the 188 or no?

My interpretation…

If you have good bit of face time with a 188, you might find your current horn somewhat lacking.

Yeah. Sorry, Brett; what matt said.

There may be lots of tubas like this, where your appreciation grows with face time, but a 188 is the one I'm trying now. It was great on first try, of course, but it takes a little while (for me, anyway) to notice lots of little things that combine to make it great. Nice sound, effortless valves, tuning you barely have to think about, super responsive, easy to hold and play. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but ... it's a really nice tuba.

Thanks -- that has been my experience as well. I think I kept adding words to what you wrote, or read it out of order, or...!

The first 188 that I played was borrowed during a band tour in Austria, I was about 24...? From the first note, I was hooked. Only thing I didn't like was that when playing in our 50-piece band it was great... And when playing in a 100-piece combined US/Austria band, my sound was dwarfed by the big BBb's. Otherwise, I wanted to buy that tuba and bring it home. I made an offer. It was declined. The tuba's owner tried to sell me his Hirsbrunner instead, but it was too much $, and I didn't want it.

But in the 15 years since then, the 188 has always been at the top 3 on my list. It's not the best at everything. Sometimes not even the best at anything. But it is really good at everything.

And one of my favorite things is how easy it is to hold. You can be super lazy with that thing. What an excellent tuba design.

Crap.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:23 pm Crap.

You had your chance.