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DonO. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:21 pm Did anyone else here ever have to sight read and transpose simultaneously in a university entrance audition?

Changing octave is not transposing. Transposing up or down a step or a 5th is much more difficult, but you can do that using clefs. An octave should be easy. Just think "same letter name." What do you do when you read treble clef? You can't possibly play it in the correct octave, so you have to play it down 1 or 2 octaves. Don't tuba players routinely play trombone music down an octave? I thought all tuba players play down the octave to annoy the conductor. C, Bb, Eb, F - tuba players all have to make that kind of transposition. An octave should be cake. Plus, maybe all the professor wanted to see is what you do when faced with something you haven't done before, or haven't practiced. Did you at least try and do it badly or did you just tell him you couldn't do it?

It’s starting to sound like the consensus here is that yes, sight reading and transposing an octave at the same time IS a legitimate audition skill, and the instructor was justified in asking me to do it, It would have been nice if somebody would have give me a heads up about that. They did send me a list of audition requirements which just said “scales solo and sight reading”. No details. Based on what I’ve read here so far, it also sounds to me like some of you think that someone like me (or just me) should not gave majored in music in the first place because I was ill-prepared. The thing is, though, I was stubborn. I got accepted at a school with no audition requirement! You may think, how good a music school can that be? But I can tell you they had a very good reputation. When I asked why no audition requirement, the chairman of the department explained that they believed in meeting the student where they were skill-wise and building up from there. I had an entrance jury (not an audition) and as a result was assigned a level and an analysis of my strengths and weaknesses. This approach suited me very well. And I ended up having a not-too-shabby 30 year career as a music educator. So, if that tuba instructor was trying to tell me that I shouldn’t be a music major, I guess I was just too thick to get the message. Thankfully.

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:29 pm

DonO. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:21 pm Did anyone else here ever have to sight read and transpose simultaneously in a university entrance audition?

Changing octave is not transposing. Transposing up or down a step or a 5th is much more difficult, but you can do that using clefs. An octave should be easy. Just think "same letter name." What do you do when you read treble clef? You can't possibly play it in the correct octave, so you have to play it down 1 or 2 octaves. Don't tuba players routinely play trombone music down an octave? I thought all tuba players play down the octave to annoy the conductor. C, Bb, Eb, F - tuba players all have to make that kind of transposition. An octave should be cake. Plus, maybe all the professor wanted to see is what you do when faced with something you haven't done before, or haven't practiced. Did you at least try and do it badly or did you just tell him you couldn't do it?

Sometimes I would take certain notes down an octave if I was able to read the notes. But I did not know how to read more than 1 line above the staff. This piece had many notes 3 and 4 lines above the staff. I knew if I tried it at all it would be horrible, and so I just told him I couldn’t do what he was asking, and I explained why I couldn’t. It’s a piece of cake to me NOW, but as a high school senior not only was it not routine, it’s something I had never done.

First off, I’m sorry about your experience - having been in similar (audition) circumstances earlier in my life, I can wholeheartedly commiserate with you.

In a “fair” world, prospective auditionees would be selected based on potential, not accomplishments.

With that said, it’s taken me almost 6 decades to come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as “someone should or shouldn’t”, or that there’s any universal standard of “fairness” in life.

(“Back in the day”, it was not unheard of for tuba players being required to play off of bass fiddle parts, especially in dance bands, etc.; so, if he was an “old timer”, it would have been a perfectly logical and reasonable request.)

I came to tuba from cello, so I was more experienced reading notes above the staff than some and could take notes down an octave if needed. That said, it was not something I practiced and was never asked to do by a director. I dimly recall getting yelled at by the MD if we took something down an octave for giggles. We were always expected to play the notes on the page. That said, in HS we were also not asked to play trombone or string bass parts, just tuba parts. In our community band I've had other experience due to limited numbers of players. But, I'm about Don's age, and I lived in the before-times when "Air and Bouree" was considered a respectable solo for a HS player.

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:06 pm In a “fair” world, prospective auditionees would be selected based on potential, not accomplishments.

Looking at it from another point of view, if the teacher and his program was so well regarded, his studio may have already been full and without GA’s or adjuncts it may have been a forgone conclusion.

(I’m a Libra, so I always look to balance stuff. In my life, I’ve learned to never attribute something to spite that can be explained by simple ignorance…)

I've never had a large enough studio to weed out weaklings, but I have had to tell a few students "if you work your everlovin' butt off for the next year or so, you might get to freshman-level". That usually does the trick. I can't give a student a grade or credit for 1st-semester tuba just because he tried hard.

No, I wouldn't think someone would be asked to read trombone music, but as I said in the beginning, the studio was probably full, and only exceptionally gifted students could be added. A "cutting session" with either very hard sight-reading or a curveball like reading octave transposition does the trick.

Sounds like what you were looking for is to show your perceived sightreading ability on something you could handle. If I give all students something they can handle it's harder to tell you can "bring it".

Be thankful you took a Music Ed path in an enjoyable environment instead of wasting money on something that most likely wouldn't have worked out.
In my experience, I have found comfort in the fact that "things usually work out for the best". I can't count how many times I have looked back on some position or opportunity I thought I HAD TO HAVE and thought "thank God I didn't get that!" That makes the pill easier to take nowadays.
Just think- you could have pursued a performance dream freelancing for 30 years and ended up with NO RETIREMENT!

Hey, that guy did you a favor. Be thankful.

TJ

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(Somewhat off-topic, yet still relevant re: teachers' standards and expectations): I (and my fellow conservatory students) had the opposite experience from a well-known tuba artist and teacher. He was in the throes of focal dystonia, so had great difficulty playing much of anything. As a result, he had trouble 'passing judgement' over our weekly lessons, and his typical comment was "That sounds pretty great; wish I could still do that". Regardless of playing level, that's what he'd say, making lessons essentially worthless.

Moral: "standards" are entirely subjective, and a double-edged sword.

One thing that has not been mentioned with regard to auditions is keyboard skills. It is the one thing I tell any youngster who shows musical talent and might possibly have aspirations to study music in college. I had been playing piano since 3rd grade so by the time I got to my college tuba audition, I had seen a whole lot more music than most other tuba players. It improves your ear and your sight reading, plus you most likely won't have to take keyboard classes. It made every aspect of my college career easier.

And if you're good enough, the vocal majors are always looking for accompanists. Yes, it's true - chicks dig piano players.

My heartfelt thanks to all who have offered their opinions on this discussion! It was very healing for me to get this off my chest by speaking (digitally of course) to a group who would understand where I was coming from. I have been nursing a grudge for a very long time, but you all have helped me to open my eyes and see other sides of this.

When I was in high school, I was a big fish in a little pond. I had no clue what was going on with other tuba players my age in other areas of the country. As for my little corner of the world, I was operating under several disadvantages that I wasn’t even aware of. My high school band program was totally focused on marching band. There were no small ensembles. No brass quintet. No solo or ensemble contests. The entire notion of a tuba solo was considered weird at my school. I had no private teacher. I was largely self taught from Rubank method books. I didn’t have my own horn until I could earn enough money to buy one. I guess I thought my circumstances were common. It didn’t occur to me that there might be tuba players in other parts of the country who had at least some of those advantages that I didn’t, and that they may have been competing for the same spots I was.

As for the professor in question, if I told you his name he is someone most of not all of you would recognize. I’d be willing to bet some of you probably know him personally or even studied with him. All these years I was only looking at the situation from my side. I never bothered trying to see his side. When I started playing “Air and Bouree”, he probably said to himself “not that again!”. It never occurred to me that he might be flooded with potential students. He most likely needed a quick “filter”, and that was it. I was a victim not of his, but rather circumstance. I showed up at a gun fight with a knife, to paraphrase The Untouchables. And I was too ignorant to see it for what it was. I thank all of you for the perspective and you have given me the ability to finally put this behind me.

P.S. to LibraryMark- piano lessons for keyboard skills, absolutely! This was another deficit I had to overcome and I ended up in the same place with a large number of freshmen with the same problem-lab piano! I would tell anyone thinking about majoring in music to take some piano lessons no matter what instrument is your major. Especially if you’re going into music ed. Those skills will serve you well. When people ask me if I can play piano, I say I play “music teacher piano”. I think that’s a particular set of skills. Give me music to a Beethoven concerto, fuggetaboutit. Ask me to make up a boom-chicka accompaniment for an elementary school song, or play chord-melody from a lead sheet, I’m your man!

DonO. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:45 pm It’s starting to sound like the consensus here is that yes, sight reading and transposing an octave at the same time IS a legitimate audition skill, and the instructor was justified in asking me to do it, It would have been nice if somebody would have give me a heads up about that. They did send me a list of audition requirements which just said “scales solo and sight reading”. No details. Based on what I’ve read here so far, it also sounds to me like some of you think that someone like me (or just me) should not gave majored in music in the first place because I was ill-prepared. The thing is, though, I was stubborn. I got accepted at a school with no audition requirement! You may think, how good a music school can that be? But I can tell you they had a very good reputation. When I asked why no audition requirement, the chairman of the department explained that they believed in meeting the student where they were skill-wise and building up from there. I had an entrance jury (not an audition) and as a result was assigned a level and an analysis of my strengths and weaknesses. This approach suited me very well. And I ended up having a not-too-shabby 30 year career as a music educator. So, if that tuba instructor was trying to tell me that I shouldn’t be a music major, I guess I was just too thick to get the message. Thankfully.

See? Things turned out as they should have.

But lots of folks in all walks of life find themselves unprepared for college, for a variety of reasons, and have to spend a year completing that preparation. They either go to a community college, or a lesser university, or they study privately (if appropriate for the topic) and bridge the gaps.

Better to do that than to jump into a competitive program and not be able to catch up, only to bust out (as we used to say at A&M) after a semester. Mostly, that's what professors are trying to do with entrance exams/requirements and auditions--they are trying to predict who will be successful in their program, not just ultimately but also immediately.

Rick "still has a couple of old resentments that don't let go easily, so understand this journey" Denney

"A man has to know his limitations"

Eventually, that is...

The problem with a lot of this is that here we are, a bunch of somethingorother year olds contemplating life when we were not yet 20. Back then I needed but did not have the wisdom I have now. How can you start your life well when you know nothing about life? That was my problem. I had all the opportunity and at the top of my physical game but none of the wisdom. Now I have the wisdom and no opportunity, and the physical game is slipping...

For a different perspective, I have the opposite story. I auditioned as a violin major at Indiana University, and was accepted and given a Personal Faculty Scholarship. I had studied, at that point in time, seven years. I was thrown in with exceedingly talented students who had studied twice as long, and my famous teacher expected me to achieve that level in a matter of months; his usual comment was that I was not practicing. That school chewed me up and spit me out, basically; I developed dystonia on the violin because I was trying to force my body to do what it simply was not ready for, and with zero compassion for my struggle. I realized eventually that many famous teachers only take the students who do not NEED technical instruction. So that is how I ended up an engineer too, and it was a much better fit. Even in school in my 30s, I could keep up with the rest of them.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:48 pm "A man has to know his limitations"

Eventually, that is...

I LOVE that line!

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:18 pm For a different perspective, I have the opposite story. I auditioned as a violin major at Indiana University, and was accepted and given a Personal Faculty Scholarship. I had studied, at that point in time, seven years. I was thrown in with exceedingly talented students who had studied twice as long, and my famous teacher expected me to achieve that level in a matter of months; his usual comment was that I was not practicing. That school chewed me up and spit me out, basically; I developed dystonia on the violin because I was trying to force my body to do what it simply was not ready for, and with zero compassion for my struggle. I realized eventually that many famous teachers only take the students who do not NEED technical instruction. So that is how I ended up an engineer too, and it was a much better fit. Even in school in my 30s, I could keep up with the rest of them.

I feel your pain. I spent a good deal of my career teaching middle and high school orchestra. When I first switched from band to orchestra I put myself on a fast track to learn to play violin. Being an adult beginner on violin (not counting what I did in college strings methods) gave me a great appreciation for violinists and violists. What one has to do physically with a violin to play with “correct” position is not easy nor is it natural. You have to MAKE your body do what is needed. It took a while before I could assume correct position without thinking about it. In a way, I think this made me a better orchestra teacher than if I had been a string player from the beginning. When I was starting beginners, I understood exactly what they were going through. I could empathize.

I've always told people the the major problem with the violin is its awkwardness....adults usually can't ever get it completely, because their bodies simply are not flexible like kids' bodies are. My left hand is shaped differently from my right because of the position it was in for that many hours during my physically formative years.

my but it is difficult to type when you have a very determined cat sitting on your lap wanting to be fed, and literally holding on to your arms trying to keep you from moving them.

I have (apparently) a different take on why the professor asked candidates to play trombone music, when he certainly had tuba sheet music right at hand.

He was applying a filter, all right. But he wasn't filtering out the candidates who couldn't transpose.

He was looking for the candidates who could be handed an unexpected task and not complain.

Dunno, maybe you came off as a whiner, or a kid with an attitude those long years ago.

We all can think of times we thought we'd come off as one thing, only to find that others thought we came off some different way. Usually a bad way.

As for ego, life beat mine out of me long ago. Perhaps some of you know what I mean.