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arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:55 am In high school or 8th grade, I was asked to be a ringer for an all-district or all-regional band that I did not audition for (they needed tubas). Of course, as I didn't audition, I sat last chair (3rd). I remember the second chair player had an enormous bell-front Conn -- in retrospect, a 20J. To me, he was some hick kid from Eastern Kentucky with an old, junky 3-valve school horn. I had a nice shiny Cerveny.

We played through some Bach chorales and for the final notes he was providing some extremely resonant false tone pitches that to my ears at the time sounded very, very nice. I hadn't yet figured out how to do that and it astonished me -- he only had 3 valves! Didn't you need 4 valves to play those low notes?

The director was impressed and complimented our sound, but I think it was mostly due to that player tastefully providing some very in-tune false tones an octave lower than written. Humbled me a bit that day.

For many years I did not understand that ‘it ain't what you've got it's what you do with it’. Your experience with the ‘hick kid’ is a very nice example of that philosophy in practice. Of course better ‘tools’ help and sometimes very much so, but ultimately it’s nearly all about the skill of the user.

As a side bar no one has mentioned how to produce good false tones. I’ve long wanted and tried to get false tones on Trombones and Tubas but have never had any success … my suspicion is that being able to play false tones isn’t a common skill. As for instruments that give good false tones my suspicion is that narrow bore works easier than large, but if you have the skill then that trumps all.

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:21 am …false tones on Trombones…

As for instruments that give good false tones my suspicion is that narrow bore works easier than large, but if you have the skill then that trumps all.

Going back to my prior post, trombones don’t generate false tones well primarily because they are too cylindrical and there simply isn’t the right recipe for the helpful impedance drop at the bell end.

This thread made me remember where I learned how to play false tones. It was a King (brass, 2350) sousaphone we had in high school. Solid false tones. We also had 3v King 2340s, and I could get the low Eb and down to work, but not as well. My 186 kinda sucked for those, but no matter since I had valves at my disposal.

I can’t remember how I stumbled upon false tones as a teen without a tuba teacher, other than me recalling I was just trying to play lower and lower and something odd popped out and I used my ear to figure out what was going on. What’s hazily coming to mind was searching for the open fundamental (I was originally a trumpet player in middle school and found out about “pedal tones” from playing flugelhorn) and that low open Eb was a diversion along the way.

Weellll -- my 183 ROTARY four valve has very usable false tones. Yeah your chops have to hit the note, and they need air. I did not even know you could get false tones on a rotary. However, the open Ab false tone, and the notes down to Eb from there, are EASIER TO PLAY than they were on the NStar with all those valves down. For that part of the range, I'll take what I've got over the NStar easily. And I will never sound like Daniel Ridder.

But I think this thing has a lot of "room" down low; the last time I played duets with my trumpet friend, I was experimenting with some notes between the C below the low Eb and the pedal, trying various valve combinations. Trumpet player said, "you keep putting different valves down and playing the same note." Can't do that on a trumpet, therefore must have been doing the impossible.

The best false tones I've ever found come from a small Eb sousaphone a friend has. The false tones are BETTER than the real ones, and the real ones are good! Wish I remembered what the brand was...I should ask him.

If there was a 3-valve Eb tuba out there with false tones that good, I would just get one of those and not even worry about anything with more valves.

@bloke, this is equal to saying, "This little tuba only has three valves, but it's got a great personality!"

Great false tones to me are a seamless low effort transition to the range below where 3 valves normally work down to the pedal.

Instruments without good false notes will not allow the air column to vibrate at the desired pitch using the desired valve combination.
Example: I own a 3 valve BBb tuba that will not play a false note Eb with no valves depressed, but it will play a nice Db using that fingering.

False notes seem to respond faster than notes played with additional valves due to less tubing involved.

In my experience, false notes lean more to the pipe organ pedal note end of the sonic spectrum where they are more felt than heard. It is normally more difficult to achieve a consistent tone color and projection with the false notes. Adjustments to airflow (more focused) and embouchure (shallower) can improve this but it is unlikely that the same sound can be achieved with false notes as opposed to using the correct combination of additional valves.