that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Projects, repair topics, and Frankentubas
User avatar
the elephant
Posts: 3384
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:39 am
Location: 404 - Not Found
Has thanked: 1899 times
Been thanked: 1344 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by the elephant »

I'm annoyed, but I read it all anyway.
bloke wrote:There's no room (detachable mouthpipe tube approaches at an angle, per classic kaiser b-tubas) for a 6th valve…
There's always room if you're determined enough, heh, heh…
bloke wrote:… an expensive rotor, expensive tubing, wonky (who knows what?) linkage, and a bunch of burned lacquer on a very handsome instrument?
I seem to remember your heroic efforts to avoid an MTS kicker on a certain 2165 that included "an expensive rotor, expensive tubing, wonky (who knows what?) linkage, and a bunch of burned lacquer on a very handsome instrument".

Add a 6th valve. All the kids are doing it. :laugh:
These users thanked the author the elephant for the post:
bloke (Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:53 am)


Image
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19313
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3850 times
Been thanked: 4101 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by bloke »

That valve was a substitute for a main tuning slide trigger, and was the only thing I moved, on that instrument. ("flick" - That sharp pitch is now flatter...Perhaps the length of the instrument is not "on the nose", but much closer, and without groping for one of three slides.)
Nearly everything wrong with that instrument - intonation-wise was a sharp problem, which is why I thought I would try out adding a valve which offered the least possible additional length.
Of course it wouldn't have been possible with the wildly-expanding oem main slide (to 24mm bore) and gigantic oem dogleg (beginning at 24mm) - thus the 20mm - 21mm main slide bow, and rotary-valve-connectable dogleg. (I don't know of any 24mm bore rotors manufactured these days, and - were they available - I wouldn't expect them to rotate very quickly.)
Lower open G (why...I'm completely shocked !!!) was a little flat, but seemed to rise (in relative tuning - more than other pitches) when the instrument reached playing temperature.
...main slide and dogleg lacquer work...?? I guess if someone let me use it for a few years, I might of shined up a few spots, and hit it with some rattle-can clear for them. :teeth:

I'm still learning, and - I believe - the learning process is why I've stepped out of the 6/4 C tuba mud puddle. I'm pretty sure that - based on instruments that I've played, and to achieve that type of sound, the best thing on the market today is the 195P-5.
https://www.melton-meinl-weston.com/en/ ... 5p-fafner/ (a B-flat tuba)

These types of marketed-to-Americans C instruments are supposedly designed to offer a nice big low-frequency (ledger lines) sound, yet - with so many of the bought-by-us-Americans shorter C ones - over the years I've seen gobs of posts about "what sort of mouthpiece offers a decent low range with my 6/4 piston valves C tuba?"

what I have now:
I have two beginning-to-red-rot slide bows to replace, one to move over to a new set-up, two to shorten, and two pair of slide tubes (ref:this thread) to replace - on this thing. I may or may not leaving them brown-and-ugly for a good while. Lacquering is something I do (when I feel that I need to) when I want someone to buy something that I'm interested in selling. There are also a couple of nice little shallow/sharp dents in the (extra thick metal) upper bow cap. Maybe (??), I can get one of those body shops to try the suction-cup technique on them... :smilie2:
Mostly, though, I'd like to achieve these things:
(most all of which defined "burned lacquer")

> a tiny bit more main slide A=440 room (for the winter), when my house (and some venues) are only heated into the 60's
> a tiny bit more #1 slide room for 1st valve C (as it's within -2 or -3 c. now, so why not shave 3/8" off each side of the bow, so it's actually "there"?)
> a not-particularly-wonky/gadgety way to achieve a low-enough low F-sharp and double-low-C (thus this possible foray/rabbit hole). That having been said, once the #1 slide bow is slightly shorter, low F-sharp might play quite nicely with 5-1 (and no, I'm not interesting in reaching up/over there and monkeying with the #5 slide, either).

There's not a whole bunch of stuff for us to play - of real interest - in symphony orchestras, and I find myself involved in various part-time "freeway philharmonics" more and in quintet, jazz band, and ethnic/European-band work less. About the only consistently gratifying thing (to me) in regards to playing in symphony orchestras is "making really pretty chords" (and having a hand in the making of them). The easiest route (for me) towards this pleasure-seeking pursuit is to acquire instruments are are already quite easy to play in tune, and then (and - you're right - the big Meinl-Weston C thing wasn't worth the trouble, and was the wrong approach) try to figure out the least wonky ways to allow them to be played (beyond "easily") "exceptionally easily" in-tune. (I'm getting old, tired of "lipping", and tired of working really hard to make "lipped" pitches sound as nice as the rest.)
These users thanked the author bloke for the post:
the elephant (Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:37 pm)
User avatar
the elephant
Posts: 3384
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:39 am
Location: 404 - Not Found
Has thanked: 1899 times
Been thanked: 1344 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by the elephant »

Not talking about reasons but mechanics. You did exactly what you described, which I saw as humorous. I'm not addressing the need, just the feasibility. You *could* put a 6th on this tuba if you wanted to badly enough to do what would be necessary. The truth of the matter is the whole diminishing returns issue. The question is not whether you can do this but would it be worth it to do this?
These users thanked the author the elephant for the post:
iiipopes (Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:59 am)
Image
User avatar
iiipopes
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 187 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by iiipopes »

the elephant wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:07 am Not talking about reasons but mechanics. You did exactly what you described, which I saw as humorous. I'm not addressing the need, just the feasibility. You *could* put a 6th on this tuba if you wanted to badly enough to do what would be necessary. The truth of the matter is the whole diminishing returns issue. The question is not whether you can do this but would it be worth it to do this?
Indeed. That is what I found out years ago when I was contemplating some modifications. For me, recognizing that as a community band player that the extreme ranges both ways were never, or at least very seldom going to be required (i.e. low Eb 1-4 pull or 124 and lip; and possibly low D 234), and the cost/benefit analysis narrowed accordingly, I found, for me, mash a bunch of valves, add a slide pull, and the occasional lipping sufficed. Your mileage will vary.
These users thanked the author iiipopes for the post:
the elephant (Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:37 pm)
Jupiter JTU1110 - K&G 3F
"Real" Conn 36K - JK 4B Classic
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19313
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3850 times
Been thanked: 4101 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by bloke »

A 6th rotor is much more "worth it" with an F tuba (or non-compensating mostly-in-tune E-flat - were there actually such an instrument).
Due to "double low D" being a more-often-written pitch than in the past (and the struggle to deal with 2-4 vs. 5-2-3) it's probably also "worth it" to some C instrument players.

With FatBastard (oddly) 2-4 (no adjustment) is good for B-natural, and (not oddly) 5-2-3 (also no adjustment, but more commonly in-tune) is good for low E.
For a not-flat C, I'm just playing it 1-3 and pulling the #1 slide only a bit more than for the next-sharpest pitch (which is "all of the E-flats").

I guess we address problems which actually exist - vs. those which often exist.
The fact that this behemoth offers few problems (obviously) was much of the attraction.

If I could find something that plays perfectly in-tune with 3 valves, and all the false tones were rock-solid and none of them rode sharp, well...
User avatar
iiipopes
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 187 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:44 pmIf I could find something that plays perfectly in-tune with 3 valves, and all the false tones were rock-solid and none of them rode sharp, well...
You are describing the 1929 Conn 38K sousaphone I had the use of for a few years: Pull and set 1 a little long, as the 2nd space C was not flat; pull 3 so 2+3 combinations were a little flat and 1+3 were a little sharp, very lippable, seamless transition to the privilege tones, all the way to very present foundational pedal BBb. If it didn't weigh 35 pounds, I'd still be playing it.
Jupiter JTU1110 - K&G 3F
"Real" Conn 36K - JK 4B Classic
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19313
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3850 times
Been thanked: 4101 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by bloke »

OK...I read a form of the word "lip" (ie. bend/favor) in your post, so that's (though - other than the 27 lbs. - fine for an outdoor noisemaker) a non-starter.

Otherwise, I have no qualms about using a sousaphone in any ensemble in particular.

Michael Stern had no problem with me using a helicon in two different subscription concerts (and the IRIS Orchestra does not do "pops" concerts), and only remarked (from the podium), "I like the way that tuba wraps around you". As I recall, a couple of pieces were those two Stravinsky Suites (orchestrated from the original piano music).

After a few years of only owning an F tuba, this was the first C instrument that I owned - after (again) several years of not owning one:
(OK...I believe I owned an E-flat sousaphone, but I've always kept an E-flat something-or-other around here.)

Image
User avatar
iiipopes
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 187 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:31 am OK...I read a form of the word "lip" (ie. bend/favor) in your post, so that's (though - other than the 27 lbs. - fine for an outdoor noisemaker) a non-starter.
Minimal if any lipping. The 38K I played was almost completely spot-on on intonation. And the tone was better than many popular tubas.
Jupiter JTU1110 - K&G 3F
"Real" Conn 36K - JK 4B Classic
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19313
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3850 times
Been thanked: 4101 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by bloke »

iiipopes wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:49 am
bloke wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:31 am OK...I read a form of the word "lip" (ie. bend/favor) in your post, so that's (though - other than the 27 lbs. - fine for an outdoor noisemaker) a non-starter.
Minimal if any lipping. The 38K I played was almost completely spot-on on intonation. And the tone was better than many popular tubas.
again, I'm not anti-sousaphone.
King fiberglass sousaphones sound 100% better - in "concert" wind bands - than nearly 100% of 3/4-size tubas...

...and - I'm thinking - King sousaphones play even a bit better in-tune than do 6/4 Conn sousaphones.
User avatar
iiipopes
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 187 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:10 pm
iiipopes wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:49 am
bloke wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:31 am OK...I read a form of the word "lip" (ie. bend/favor) in your post, so that's (though - other than the 27 lbs. - fine for an outdoor noisemaker) a non-starter.
Minimal if any lipping. The 38K I played was almost completely spot-on on intonation. And the tone was better than many popular tubas.
again, I'm not anti-sousaphone.
King fiberglass sousaphones sound 100% better - in "concert" wind bands - than nearly 100% of 3/4-size tubas...

...and - I'm thinking - King sousaphones play even a bit better in-tune than do 6/4 Conn sousaphones.
I agree completely with the King souzy, having marched in high school with a 1st generation King souzy, which doubled for concert band since at that time the school could not afford both.

I respectfully disagree about the 38K: you should have had the opportunity to play. It would change your mind about its playability as well as rattle the floor joists without having to push too much air through it.
Jupiter JTU1110 - K&G 3F
"Real" Conn 36K - JK 4B Classic
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19313
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3850 times
Been thanked: 4101 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by bloke »

A few 38K sousas have been through here.
Often, their valves are worn out. I’ve slipped 22K fiberglass short action sousaphone valve sections on them and sold them to zombie band directors as model 20K sousaphones - which is what they are, after I convert them.

The same zombie band directors who think the only good sousaphone as a short action sousaphone are the same ones who think that everything Yamaha makes is great.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19313
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3850 times
Been thanked: 4101 times

Re: that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

Post by bloke »

yet another example of how so-called progressives only pay lip service to conservation and the environment, whereas we conservatives are actually – just look at our name – the conservationalists.

The strike side rubber bumper on this huge B-flat tuba split in half, so – instead of wasting resources and replacing it yesterday – I simply took it out, turned it around backwards, and stuffed it back in place.

😐
These users thanked the author bloke for the post:
York-aholic (Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:13 pm)
Post Reply