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Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:12 pm
by donn
In a similar vein it might be interesting to see what the modern bass saxhorn (Courtois, Willson) can do in the low range. In this video -
Jose Franco : Agüero par Opus 333, you can hear a fairly convincing bass part in the first half minute. It doesn't sound like a trombone, but closer to it than a euphonium in my opinion. Of course these are somewhat spendy instruments.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:33 pm
by acemorgan
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/br ... alve-br144
Lock the 4th valve down, and you have a baritone in F, complete with the cylindrical tubing giving a trombone-esque sound.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:55 am
by Mary Ann
But a person unaccustomed to a stuffy instrument would have a learning curve on that.
Plus, "Planned" delivery isn't until Jan 2023, which means "any time after that" in real life.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:32 pm
by donn
Maybe I'm forgetting how they work, but it seems to me that 4V compensating tubaphone has compensating circuits for the 4th valve only, so a player who doesn't use the 4th valve - whether it's locked open or closed - would be better off with a non-compensating instrument, as long as it has reasonably long tuning slides.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:34 pm
by acemorgan
bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:47 pm
I'm looking for something that's roughly an F baritone.
There isn't one.
A compensating baritone or euphonium with the 4th valve depressed is the closest thing to emulate it.
Is it potentially stuffy? Yes, but don't those strange little travel tubas have their own problems? Also, paraphrasing Roger Rocco, who was paraphrasing Arnold Jacobs, "The sound you hear in your head is a greater determinant of what you produce than is the equipment on your lap."
If the compensating baritone from Wessex isn't available now, there are plenty of compensating euphoniums out there that one could try out, borrow, buy, etc.
I just got out my compensating euphonium to test the theory. Full 3 valve chromatic performance from F2 upward. Yes, you lose some notes south of B1, but that is characteristic of 3 valves in the lower range anyway.
Borrow one and try it.
- I have spoken.
- kuuil.png (84.79 KiB) Viewed 1851 times
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:19 pm
by donn
For a diagrammatic representation, see
The Blaikley Compensating System, by David Werden, and push the little blue buttons for the 4 valve system.
There are no compensation circuits for combinations of the first 3 valves, so where the 4th valve isn't involved, valves work the same as for any tubaphonium. Most of which play adequately in tune anyway. Compensating circuits come on with the 4th valve, but only one circuit per each of the other 3 valves, so combinations of 3 valves are not fully compensated. In the unusual case where the 4th valve is always on, a standard system can add the required compensating length in the main valve slides, if they're long enough, and get the same effect (or better, if the path is cleaner.)
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:30 pm
by bone-a-phone
I've got a 4v comp euph, yeah, it works down low with a Schilke 59, but to be honest here's what I was hoping:
Some expert in obscurities would say "you know, Conn in 1897 made this military harumphaphone that tuba players hated because it wasn't tubish enough. It was in F with 4 valves, very large bore for the period, played to modern pitch, and was very baritone ish. I've got 3 in my basement. If you want, I'll bring the nicest one over to your house. "
I've seen skinny old horns, and always fantasized that they were useful. Like this one, look familiar? What is that?
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:32 am
by MikeS
With a shallow enough mouthpiece this might do the trick.
https://www.baltimorebrasscompany.com/p ... -tuba.aspx
I know it’s not as compact as you are looking for, but it’s still only about 32” tall and no more than 14 pounds.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:46 am
by Mary Ann
That is still going to sound like a tuba though. That "sound you hear in your head" has its limits --- A euph is going to sound like a euph, a tuba is going to sound like a tuba, a bone is going to sound like a bone --- and the player can "modify" that a bit but not change the basic character.
That little F is intriguing and -- oh dear is the stable going to grow again? Not that I need an F for anything, although what the 182 was fun for in the past was playing the lowest part for the horn club (but I had to be careful to not cover them all up) and the 3rd part in the Reicha trios done with horns. All the third parts were totally playable on an F tuba, and the fingerings exactly the same.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:49 am
by bone-a-phone
Interesting.
Here's one that's not F, but it's little. Kind of bracing for impact, because I seem to remember there was something wrong with this. It seems too good to be true. Just want to make sure to turn over that stone and look under it...
https://www.schillerinstruments.com/tub ... ni-bb-tuba
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:45 am
by the elephant
I have one of these. It is absolutely impossible to play it in tune. The Bb extender slide makes a terrible instrument even worse. In C it is at least in tune within single octaves, but it shifts in pitch by as much as 40¢ flat in the upper octave and 40¢ sharp in the lower one. It is not worth anything at all, even as spare parts, as something is so seriously wrong with it that I would suspect all the inner branches to have been tapered in a way that would not allow them to be used in other instruments. The slides barely pull, despite being realigned by me, personally: the tubes need to be SANDED to get them to move as even repeated lapping does little to free them up. The valves are absolutely craptacular. None of the transmission parts are nickel silver, all of them being poorly nickel-plated brass of a very soft and bendable alloy. This is one of the worst instruments I have ever come across. It is truly dreadful.
Do NOT get one of these.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:37 am
by bone-a-phone
the elephant wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:45 am
I have one of these. It is absolutely impossible to play it in tune. The Bb extender slide makes a terrible instrument even worse. In C it is at least in tune within single octaves, but it shifts in pitch by as much as 40¢ flat in the upper octave and 40¢ sharp in the lower one. It is not worth anything at all, even as spare parts, as something is so seriously wrong with it that I would suspect all the inner branches to have been tapered in a way that would not allow them to be used in other instruments. The slides barely pull, despite being realigned by me, personally: the tubes need to be SANDED to get them to move as even repeated lapping does little to free them up. The valves are absolutely craptacular. None of the transmission parts are nickel silver, all of them being poorly nickel-plated brass of a very soft and bendable alloy. This is one of the worst instruments I have ever come across. It is truly dreadful.
Do NOT get one of these.
Ok, I figured there was a reason I couldn't find any information about these, since they seemed to have been around for a while. I guess that's a hard pass on that one.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:58 pm
by TheDoctor
bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:49 am
Interesting.
Here's one that's not F, but it's little. Kind of bracing for impact, because I seem to remember there was something wrong with this. It seems too good to be true. Just want to make sure to turn over that stone and look under it...
They started importing one that looks like one of the euphonium bugles with a valveset, much like on the one you posted, slapped on it. I made a thread about it against my better judgement, because I'm not much a fan of chinaphones and don't have much useful discussion to contribute on them.
https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/stor ... nium-gold/
Price is a bit steep for what it is
Are you opposed to the Schiller or Wessex travel f? Most video demos of it sound like a chimbaribassotoneophonium. I have played it in an elephant room, but can't recall what I sounded like on it personally
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:07 pm
by arpthark
the elephant wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:45 am
I have one of these. It is absolutely impossible to play it in tune. The Bb extender slide makes a terrible instrument even worse. In C it is at least in tune within single octaves, but it shifts in pitch by as much as 40¢ flat in the upper octave and 40¢ sharp in the lower one. It is not worth anything at all, even as spare parts, as something is so seriously wrong with it that I would suspect all the inner branches to have been tapered in a way that would not allow them to be used in other instruments. The slides barely pull, despite being realigned by me, personally: the tubes need to be SANDED to get them to move as even repeated lapping does little to free them up. The valves are absolutely craptacular. None of the transmission parts are nickel silver, all of them being poorly nickel-plated brass of a very soft and bendable alloy. This is one of the worst instruments I have ever come across. It is truly dreadful.
Do NOT get one of these.
But would it be good for Bydlo?
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:32 pm
by the elephant
Wretched. The part covers two octaves that are c. 40¢ apart in pitch.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:46 pm
by jtm
the elephant wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:45 am
I have one of these. It is absolutely impossible to play it in tune. The Bb extender slide makes a terrible instrument even worse. In C it is at least in tune within single octaves, but it shifts in pitch by as much as 40¢ flat in the upper octave and 40¢ sharp in the lower one. ...
Every time I get a little frustrated with my tubas' tuning, I see a write-up like this and feel a little better.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:14 pm
by arpthark
the elephant wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:32 pm
Wretched. The part covers two octaves that are c. 40¢ apart in pitch.
Heh, I was kidding. Just like Modest "Microtonal" Mussorgsky intended!
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:16 am
by bone-a-phone
TheDoctor wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:58 pm
Are you opposed to the Schiller or Wessex travel f? Most video demos of it sound like a chimbaribassotoneophonium. I have played it in an elephant room, but can't recall what I sounded like on it personally
I'm thinking that's the closest I'm going to find. The trick is going to be to get to try one without laying out $2500. Or waiting for the Army show to come around again. Maybe there's a friendly Mid-Atlantic type of person who might let me borrow one for a month... Or maybe you want a trombone-shaped-object in trade?
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:48 pm
by Mary Ann
Wessex does allow returns, but you have to pay shipping. They are not happy about it but will do it. Schiller, AFAIK, nope.
Re: Very small F tuba
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:28 am
by Bob Kolada
653s are 100% F tubas and not going to do what OP wants. I'd say they're broader than the MW 182 but played them years apart.
I ended up getting a horn made by JC Sherman. It's an Eb with a 3 valve King .562 baritone valve set, a G baritone bell and a bunch of straight .562 tubing. I went with that because A it was cheap and B it gives me a low Bb. It's a little tight, I think .594 would be perfect but I don't know what valve set you would use. I play it with a Josef Klier KBP2C, I think I need something bigger.
Cerveny makes 4 valve F bass trombones (and used to make 5 valve bent horns) that are smaller than cimbassos, might be worth a look. There's another European maker who makes mini F tubas for cavalry bands and kids, I can't recall the name. They really look like a trombone/tuba crossover.
http://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/rot ... /trombones
Maybe this thing?
http://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/rot ... cfb-631-4g
My horn with JC holding it-
If anyone in northwest Indiana wants to try it let me know!