Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:01 pm
by bloke
LeMark wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:02 pm
wow, that looks amazing. honestly, if I had a 6 valve tuba, I think I would rather have a 5+1 instead of 4+2, but I'm sure others would disagree
My kaiser bariton is going to end up being 5+1 out of necessity (unless I wanted to [1] tear it all back apart, and [2] throw away the long mouthpipe tube and start over), but I would have preferred that it be 4+2.
5+1 insures that no digit is available to move the #1 (if needed), whereas 4+2 (again) leaves a thumb open for a possible #1 trigger as well as another thumb for a possible #5 trigger.
With my particular F tuba tuba, I never need to move the #1 slide, so I've got my right hand thumb operating a (rarely-used) #5 slide trigger...
I barely move it out for 5-6-4 (low A), and - for a nice resonant (rather than the open/"hollow"-sounding) low F - I kick out the #5 slide as far as it will go for a 5-6-1-2-3-4 (24 feet of tubing - just as with a Bb or C tuba) low F...That's my Rite of Spring low F "secret weapon".
Something else positive about the 5-6-1-2-3-4 set-up:
The chromatic fingering pattern actually make logical-to-the-brain sense, as valves 5 and 6 (operated by the left hand's index and middle fingers) mirror the chromatic pattern (learned by all brass-playing beginner players within the first month of playing) in the right hand...except (of course) with the 4th valve depressed.
In contrast, a 5+1 system is an *"add-on" (rather than integrated) configuration.
_____________________________ *ie. "I'm accustomed to this, but I'm sticking this on here, too."
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:34 pm
by bort2.0
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:50 pm
That having been said, there are still two thumbs available (possibly, for #1 and #5 slide triggers).
Like that wacky Rudy F the new Mnozil guy has... (Terrible w names, sorry!)?
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:50 pm
That having been said, there are still two thumbs available (possibly, for #1 and #5 slide triggers).
Like that wacky Rudy F the new Mnozil guy has... (Terrible w names, sorry!)?
I haven't seen it, but (having played both standard models of R-M F tubas with a tuner nearby) if there are triggers there, they are probably used for more than tweaking low A and to offer an alternate fingering for low F.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:47 pm
by bort2.0
This:
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:34 am
by matt g
Having only owned 5v tubas, I always wonder what I’d prefer on F “next time”.
The 4+2 setup seems pretty natural provided the left index is operating the “corrected first” and the left middle is operating the “corrected second”. That seems intuitive. If a thumb trigger could be built to kick the main slide out with an automatic return, I think most issues are solved provided one sets the horn up properly. I think I’m in agreement with Joe that it’s overall easier to lip pitches up than down.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:50 pm
That having been said, there are still two thumbs available (possibly, for #1 and #5 slide triggers).
Like that wacky Rudy F the new Mnozil guy has... (Terrible w names, sorry!)?
I thought Willie Brandstotter was playing his signature model MW 2260 with Mnozil Brass (which I'd love to try, btw)...? IDK if his old tuba was a Rudy, a B&S, or B&F, but it had a 5th slide lever on the left side.
Albert Wieder fills in occasionally, but he has a Bohland & Fuchs kaiser he usually plays. And he plays a helicon with a nice patina in his other groups.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
(Don't know how to paste a link from the YT app and make it look pretty...)
That seems to be (with extra stuff added) the later-introduced B&S-lookin' RM F tuba.
Admittedly, I heard this third-hand, but a high-profile friendly acquaintance in Chicago is said to have bought one - because the resonance was so beautiful - and very soon realized that the scale it offered was not as beautiful as its resonance.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:44 am
by bort2.0
I think it's just the double RH thumb triggers that make my brain hurt on this one. Otherwise, it's a Vienna tuba setup... and if you're Austrian and learned how to play that way, sure, it probably does feel pretty natural.
If I had that tuba or no tuba, I'm sure I'd pretty quickly learn how to play it. And really, isn't that what people have done all along? Use and get used to whatever you have. How many times have we heard stories of pros who sounded amazing on their instrument... which other people pretty much thought was a crappy instrument...
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
LeMark wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:02 pm
wow, that looks amazing. honestly, if I had a 6 valve tuba, I think I would rather have a 5+1 instead of 4+2, but I'm sure others would disagree
My kaiser bariton is going to end up being 5+1 out of necessity (unless I wanted to [1] tear it all back apart, and [2] throw away the long mouthpipe tube and start over), but I would have preferred that it be 4+2.
5+1 insures that no digit is available to move the #1 (if needed), whereas 4+2 (again) leaves a thumb open for a possible #1 trigger as well as another thumb for a possible #5 trigger.
With my particular F tuba tuba, I never need to move the #1 slide, so I've got my right hand thumb operating a (rarely-used) #5 slide trigger...
I barely move it out for 5-6-4 (low A), and - for a nice resonant (rather than the open/"hollow"-sounding) low F - I kick out the #5 slide as far as it will go for a 5-6-1-2-3-4 (24 feet of tubing - just as with a Bb or C tuba) low F...That's my Rite of Spring low F "secret weapon".
Something else positive about the 5-6-1-2-3-4 set-up:
The chromatic fingering pattern actually make logical-to-the-brain sense, as valves 5 and 6 (operated by the left hand's index and middle fingers) mirror the chromatic pattern (learned by all brass-playing beginner players within the first month of playing) in the right hand...except (of course) with the 4th valve depressed.
In contrast, a 5+1 system is an *"add-on" (rather than integrated) configuration.
_____________________________ *ie. "I'm accustomed to this, but I'm sticking this on here, too."
I much prefer a 6v F tuba for all those reasons, and my experience is very similar.
matt g wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:34 am
Having only owned 5v tubas, I always wonder what I’d prefer on F “next time”.
The 4+2 setup seems pretty natural provided the left index is operating the “corrected first” and the left middle is operating the “corrected second”. That seems intuitive. If a thumb trigger could be built to kick the main slide out with an automatic return, I think most issues are solved provided one sets the horn up properly. I think I’m in agreement with Joe that it’s overall easier to lip pitches up than down.
My Symphonie previously had a 2nd valve kicker, but the lever mechanism was removed at some point prior to me buying the tuba. I can see on a couple of notes where it would help, but I'm not suffering without it either. The only thing that has been problematic, save for actually getting to play it on the job to make sure it's everything I want, is getting back into the 4+2 when I've had a 5+1 for a few years. There was an adjustment (and still occasional brain fart) in getting both sides of the brain to work at the same time so I could push the left index finger instead of the right thumb. Repetition, repetition, repetition... Strangely (or not), going from 5v CC and BBb tubas with all RH valves to 4+2 does not present a problem. Maybe due to training and associating those differences with different tubas similarly to how you adjust to how each tuba blows/responds differently...?
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:41 am
by bloke
With a six-valve system, there are SO MANY ways to finger the two pitches (F tuba: F♯ and B) where a "2nd slide kicker" would otherwise be useful:
...ALL of these alternative ways:
1-2-3
2-4
6-1-3
6-4
5-2-3
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:04 am
by Doc
bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:41 am
With a six-valve system, there are SO MANY ways to finger the two pitches (F tuba: F♯ and B) where a "2nd slide kicker" would otherwise be useful:
...ALL of these alternative ways:
1-2-3
2-4
6-1-3
6-4
5-2-3
2-4 is pretty close on low B, 5-2-3 (I generally tend to prefer 5-2-3 over 2-4/PULL on anything) is a tad low, but easy to put on pitch, especially when you stand on it. It's also good after playing high, then needing to relax enough to play on pitch (thinking of VW 2nd movement - high tessitura, then roll down to the B that MUST be in tune).
2-4 is good on F#, but 1-2-3 is very usable on the fly. 5-2-3 on F# is a little low. Db in the staff is fine 2-3 when I'm on the money, but 5-6 works well. Where I find that a second valve kicker might help is with E and D below the staff. When I'm lazy, the E can drift just a tad sharp. The D is good 1-2, but when I'm hitting the gas a bit, I play it 3.
I find that the more I play, the more I zero in on the "sweet spot." After that, I might make micro-adjustments daily for me and my own deficiencies due to increased/decreased practice, lack of motivation, lack of talent, etc.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:34 am
by bloke
With my same-make-as-yours F tuba, I generally use 6-4 for B natural.
When (from time-to-time) I see how others have set their slides on F tubas of this model, I often see (my opinion) that the 4th slide is pulled out too far...
When the C is blown "through the center", that slide probably only asks for about a 1" pull (with the main slide out roughly 5/8").
(The older I get, the longer I tend to set my instruments' main slides, and recordings seem to confirm that those decisions are valid.)
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:41 am
by Doc
bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:34 am
With my same-make-as-yours F tuba, I generally use 6-4 for B natural.
When (from time-to-time) I see how others have set their slides on F tubas of this model, I often see (my opinion) that the 4th slide is pulled out too far...
When the C is blown "through the center", that slide probably only asks for about a 1" pull (with the main slide out roughly 5/8".
Without looking at it right now to confirm, I'd say mine is about the same.
I did get to play it on the job Sunday. Seemed to be just fine. My wife recorded a couple tunes of a thrown-together band that played after the concert and ceremony. The tuning was reasonably good, especially after drinking copious amounts of Hacker Pschorr all day, but she stood too close to the PA speakers, and the tuba sound (recorded on an iPhone) is over-driven.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
That's a great falsetto. Sounds like the Swingle Singers.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:33 am
by jtm
bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:34 am
...
(The older I get, the longer I tend to set my instruments' main slides, and recordings seem to confirm that those decisions are valid.)
Any idea why this is?
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:48 am
by bloke
I thought about your question, last night, when I was playing the last of a series of neighborhood brass quintet concerts - to support our per-service orchestra. (I believe they raised about $35,000 from those concerts.)
Listening to the tuning, the trombonist (an Indiana University/Van Haney trombone performance graduate - who was also the trombone professor at Tennessee Tech for quite a while), the first trumpet, and I seemed to be sitting at A=440, with other two players’ tuning hovering slightly higher.
I’m thinking that I’m really not playing sharper and sharper (not having to pull my slides out farther and farther), but may have just grown weary of playing above pitch, in order to accommodate younger/less-experienced players. After all, most tubas tend to be limited in how sharp they are capable of being played.
That having been said, I also believe that bass-range pitches - at slightly lower tuning levels than soprano pitches - sound better to most people’s ears, for the same reasons - easier to tune perfect fifths - that pianos tuned this way sound better.
HEY... Miraphone has my parts order ready to ship!
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:53 pm
by jtm
Several (or maybe many, now) years ago I used to read some photography forums. There were always posts about how this lens or that camera or the other flash system made it possible to get some great picture. And then discussion about whether most photographers would ever be in a situation to need such a feature, and could they stand to miss the shot, or could they approximate it well enough with some more pedestrian gear.
This thread makes me feel like those: I'm ready to add valves to a tuba that I'm perfectly happy with. Fortunately, I'm too cheap, so I'll just marvel at the multi-valve revelations of others.
Re: NEVER enough valves on a rotary instrument !!!
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:52 pm
by bloke
jtm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:53 pm
Several (or maybe many, now) years ago I used to read some photography forums. There were always posts about how this lens or that camera or the other flash system made it possible to get some great picture. And then discussion about whether most photographers would ever be in a situation to need such a feature, and could they stand to miss the shot, or could they approximate it well enough with some more pedestrian gear.
This thread makes me feel like those: I'm ready to add valves to a tuba that I'm perfectly happy with. Fortunately, I'm too cheap, so I'll just marvel at the multi-valve revelations of others.
It's trouble for me (and probably sort of inconvenient and somewhat expensive for some others) to add valves to tubas...
..but - when it makes sense to do so - being able to blow right through the center of a pitch (without having to "do" anything - other than drop a finger) is a bit magical...suddenly, various mouthpieces, playing situations, (oils?), all seem to work "just fine".
