Yamaclone piston holes

[edfirth]

Hey Arpy, I encountered this phenominum and a friend suggested using a short piece of garden hose to go over the horn methodically while it's being played. Just to be clear, you, or your assistant have one end of the hose up to your ear and the other person plays while you go over the entire horn. I know it sounds a bit abstract but it's worked for me and some of my friends. It isolates the sound. Maybe worth a try? Best, Ed

[arpthark]

Hey Arpy, I encountered this phenominum and a friend suggested using a short piece of garden hose to go over the horn methodically while it's being played. Just to be clear, you, or your assistant have one end of the hose up to your ear and the other person plays while you go over the entire horn. I know it sounds a bit abstract but it's worked for me and some of my friends. It isolates the sound. Maybe worth a try? Best, Ed

Thank you Ed! This sounds like it is worth a shot.

Blake

[bloke]

Yeah...an assistant is almost a necessity when tracking down vibration noises (OK, and tiny holes/cracks in tubing).

I dunno what I would have done without Mrs. bloke pinching and pulling on things (while I played) to find annoying vibration-causing issues...

...as well as (tubing cracks, etc.) me using cigarette smoke or water, and her watching for smoke or water to reveal the flaw.

Sometimes, a solder joint on a brace flange looks perfect, but the space in the center of the flange is such that the flange vibrates against the instrument in the hollow un-soldered center of the brace flange (and they absolutely tend to be hollow in the center, because the center post of the brace causes that part to not heat up enough for solder to flow to the center).

[the elephant]

Hey Arpy, I encountered this phenominum and a friend suggested using a short piece of garden hose to go over the horn methodically while it's being played. Just to be clear, you, or your assistant have one end of the hose up to your ear and the other person plays while you go over the entire horn. I know it sounds a bit abstract but it's worked for me and some of my friends. It isolates the sound. Maybe worth a try? Best, Ed

@edfirth YES!

I do this, too, but I modify it to be more like an old "ear trumpet" by duct-taping a small funnel to the end that is pointed at the horn.

If I can make physical contact with the horn (because I already know more or less where the issue is) I use an engine stethoscope. They are cheap and a little more effective than the hose would be.

Amazon listing for a very decent Mechanic's stethoscope kit. It can be used in many ways. It does not work well without making physical contact, though. In a case where I was still trying to locate the general area of the noise, I would use the "ear trumpet" first. If you are in a noisy shop these two tools can be a big help.

Harbor Freight sells an engine stethoscope, but I do not know whether it is any good.

This is the one linked to above. I have never used the wand. The cone/funnel works very well.

[arpthark]

I jury rigged an ear trumpet thing thanks to Ed's and Wade's advice and figured out, thanks to my wife (who was cranking out some impressive notes on this thing for not having played a brass instrument in years... marched baritone in high school), the buzz was definitely coming from piston #1 itself. Using a rubber stopper, I wanted to see if there was a leak. My wife blew on it while plugged. Air tight, until #1 was engaged. And then the leak started. Plugging the back valve cap vent made it air tight again, so DEFINITELY the piston, I reckon. And, lo and behold, what I thought was dirt or discoloration on a first (and second, and third, whoops) view revealed to be two very small pinholes in piston #1's porting.



Repairable? What say ye, repairfolk?

[bloke]

Were it a real tuba, I might send it back but - being what it is - I'd just float a little bit of lead solder (or some of that small gauge no-lead plumbing solder, maybe) over those holes and proclaim the instrument to be "better than perfect", and even "custom".

I use the clear watery flux (applied with a Q-tip), because it isn't gooey, but others (you...??) use other types of flux.

I'm guessing you already have solder, but - if not - my podunk Ace (yours?) has this in stock...

https://www.acehardware.com/departments ... es/2017383

It's laughably overpriced, but what isn't...and it isn't a ton of money (as $11 is now worth about a buck)...and it includes some nice gooey flux, too.

[arpthark]

Were it a real tuba, I might send it back but - being what it is - I'd just float a little bit of lead solder (or some of that small gauge no-lead plumbing solder, maybe) over those holes and proclaim the instrument to be "better than perfect", and even "custom".

I use the clear watery flux (applied with a Q-tip), because it isn't gooey, but others (you...??) use other types of flux.

I'm guessing you already have solder, but - if not - my podunk Ace (yours?) has this in stock...

https://www.acehardware.com/departments ... es/2017383

It's laughably overpriced, but what isn't...and it isn't a ton of money (as $11 is now worth about a buck)...and it includes some nice gooey flux, too.

Hey, I've got that exact pack from Ace.

Yeah, not looking for perfection, but a not-buzzing, playable, decent F tuba for $2k makes me happy. Will suck it up, be brave and attempt to patch.

[bloke]

Use enough heat before adding the solder, but JUST enough, so that it doesn't fall in those holes.

Also, add a little bit more flux after you heat it, and then touch up the heat (before applying the solder).

You don't need to worry that you're going to un-solder those cross-ports from the stainless steel...those joints are brazed (very high temp).

It would be good if you had a trashed piston to practice on...

Does your repair guy have a folded piston in their scrap brass?

I suppose you could use JB Weld, but...dude...

[arpthark]

It would be good if you had a trashed piston to practice on...

Got a nice little bin full of screwy pistons I've scrounged from here and there. Worth a trial run.

Thank you for your help.

[bone-a-phone]

I jury rigged an ear trumpet thing thanks to Ed's and Wade's advice and figured out, thanks to my wife (who was cranking out some impressive notes on this thing for not having played a brass instrument in years... marched baritone in high school), the buzz was definitely coming from piston #1 itself. Using a rubber stopper, I wanted to see if there was a leak. My wife blew on it while plugged. Air tight, until #1 was engaged. And then the leak started. Plugging the back valve cap vent made it air tight again, so DEFINITELY the piston, I reckon. And, lo and behold, what I thought was dirt or discoloration on a first (and second, and third, whoops) view revealed to be two very small pinholes in piston #1's porting.

Repairable? What say ye, repairfolk?

Nice job sleuthing that out. I had a Festivo with a leak in the compensating tubes for the 2nd valve. Took me most of the warrantee period to find it. Wessex paid to have the work done. Anyway, congrats on finding it. Best of luck on the repair.

[arpthark]

I jury rigged an ear trumpet thing thanks to Ed's and Wade's advice and figured out, thanks to my wife (who was cranking out some impressive notes on this thing for not having played a brass instrument in years... marched baritone in high school), the buzz was definitely coming from piston #1 itself. Using a rubber stopper, I wanted to see if there was a leak. My wife blew on it while plugged. Air tight, until #1 was engaged. And then the leak started. Plugging the back valve cap vent made it air tight again, so DEFINITELY the piston, I reckon. And, lo and behold, what I thought was dirt or discoloration on a first (and second, and third, whoops) view revealed to be two very small pinholes in piston #1's porting.

Repairable? What say ye, repairfolk?

Nice job sleuthing that out. I had a Festivo with a leak in the compensating tubes for the 2nd valve. Took me most of the warrantee period to find it. Wessex paid to have the work done. Anyway, congrats on finding it. Best of luck on the repair.

Xi Jinping didn't deign me a warranty, so arpthark is on his own for this one.

Actually, I may contact the company I bought it from, just on the off-chance that something can be done...? But I really doubt they will do anything at all, or even send me a new piston.

[Sousaswag]

I wonder if these use the same (similar?) pistons that other Yammie tubas (321?) use. There's enough junkers about that somebody's got to have a spare piston rather than attempting to fix the crappy one they gave you.

[arpthark]

I wonder if these use the same (similar?) pistons that other Yammie tubas (321?) use. There's enough junkers about that somebody's got to have a spare piston rather than attempting to fix the crappy one they gave you.

Good thought. The YBB-321 and the YxB-621 both share the .728" bore, and there is speculation that this tuba uses a reconfigured top-action valveset anyway, but my reponse to that:

1. I don't have one lying around

2. A replacement valve might not exactly fit

3. I can probably fix this

4. If I can't fix it, my repair guy can un-"fix" it and properly fix it.

I'll be excited to get this thing working.

[bort2.0]

Congrats on finding this! I hope that's the source of the problems!

For the repairpeople... what do you think happened during the manufacturing process to cause this?

[arpthark]

Too much Chinesium in the brass alloy.

Or maybe Swiss Cheesium.

Maybe there were impurities in the brass that, when the porting was brazed into the piston, turned into holes at high temps?

[Sousaswag]

NOT trying to crap all over your thread! Congrats on finding the problem.

However, this is why I still will not buy a Chinese tuba-shaped object. Regardless of the manufacturer. East-people, Wessex, Jimbo, they've ALL got their problems that we just don't see with more expensive German horns. I'm more willing to pay more for a horn that's built well that causes me no headaches. Regardless of who's endorsing them.

Keeping in mind that this tuba is a for fun, inexpensive instrument, this is fine. I'd certainly be unhappy, but if it plays well, super. I am happy that you seem to like the horn and have found the cause of your buzz.

[arpthark]

NOT trying to crap all over your thread! Congrats on finding the problem.

However, this is why I still will not buy a Chinese tuba-shaped object. Regardless of the manufacturer. East-people, Wessex, Jimbo, they've ALL got their problems that we just don't see with more expensive German horns. I'm more willing to pay more for a horn that's built well that causes me no headaches. Regardless of who's endorsing them.

Keeping in mind that this tuba is a for fun, inexpensive instrument, this is fine. I'd certainly be unhappy, but if it plays well, super. I am happy that you seem to like the horn and have found the cause of your buzz.

Thread definitely not crapped on. You get what you pay for. I have no presuppositions about this thing. It is what it is. But once this issue is fixed, it will be a good little F tuba for $2k, and as someone with a separate career, wife, kid, mortgage, etc., that is fine with me. If I ever want to sell it, I am sure someone around here would pay $2k for a Yamaclone.

[bort2.0]

However, this is why I still will not buy a Chinese tuba-shaped object. Regardless of the manufacturer. East-people, Wessex, Jimbo, they've ALL got their problems that we just don't see with more expensive German horns. I'm more willing to pay more for a horn that's built well that causes me no headaches. Regardless of who's endorsing them.

I was kind of thinking this too... That my 100 year old Martin Eb doesn't have any idea like this. The valves actually look great for being so old!

Now, I'm sure it has other manufacturing stuff going on, worse tolerances, the human factors of handmade-ness... But still interesting to think about.

And at the same time, if it took Blake and others a few weeks to find this, I'm not surprised they didn't find it in a few minutes of QC before it left the factory.

[Sousaswag]

However, this is why I still will not buy a Chinese tuba-shaped object. Regardless of the manufacturer. East-people, Wessex, Jimbo, they've ALL got their problems that we just don't see with more expensive German horns. I'm more willing to pay more for a horn that's built well that causes me no headaches. Regardless of who's endorsing them.

I was kind of thinking this too... That my 100 year old Martin Eb doesn't have any idea like this. The valves actually look great for being so old!

Now, I'm sure it has other manufacturing stuff going on, worse tolerances, the human factors of handmade-ness... But still interesting to think about.

And at the same time, if it took Blake and others a few weeks to find this, I'm not surprised they didn't find it in a few minutes of QC before it left the factory.

Right- human error will always be present. However, at least with the old American horns, they seem to be put together pretty well, but imo nothing beats the German and Swiss-made stuff. They have a level of craftsmanship that will continue to be unmatched.

The best thing about Blake's thread is it's real-world stuff we can learn from. He's quite the sleuth finding such a little pinhole, but this is knowledge we can all learn from and take away from!

[bloke]

I sold one of those Bach Mercedes (Olds tooling) tubas for a really low price to a school. It was a three valve model and the pistons were really worn and a lot of the porting in the pistons was rotten. They didn't want to pay for a new set of pistons - even though I offered them at cost - so I floated a ton of solder on those ports and filled all the holes. They're happy.

The right way to do it is to solder in brass patches, but I would have had to charge them a lot for that, so...