TubaForum.net

marccromme wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 8:57 am

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 8:42 am @Rick Denney

With FatBastard, the vast majority of the time when I'm using the fifth valve it is to play low E with 5-2-3 (to remedy the literal shortcomings of 2-4).
It is nice, because I can just punch buttons and cut loose without reaching desperately for either the fourth slide or some second valve slide trigger.


With an amazing instrument with five valves, the commonly written low range is more accessible - and jumps out more readily - with a B flat amazing instrument versus a C amazing instrument with the same number of valves, in my opinion... Less cylindrical plumbing and less valve porting may well be the reason...(??)

That is exactly the reason why I miss the 5th valve on my Amati 681 Bb. Plus the shift from 23 to 24 is really akward, but 23 to 235 easy peasy ...

Here is a good argument for a Bb 5 valved, thanks.

B-flat tuba-wise...
Commonly, 4th valve C is considerably flatter than 4th valve "low" F, so (with the very same tendency a half step lower) I produce B-natural with 2-4 (with the flatness of the overtone nearly meeting the inadequate tubing length in the middle - ie. serendipity) and produce C with 1-3 (unless I'm playing through a frantic passage). Of course I've got my hand on the first valve slide, and offer enough of that tubing for 1-3 to produce a true C...

An in tune tuba - when the scoring includes it - can make an entire symphony orchestra ring, harmonically. An out of tune tuba - by more than a hundredth of a semitone or so (or maybe even only by a hundredth of a semitone) is not going to be able to accomplish that... Of course, the overwhelming majority of the other players are going to have to be locked in as well, but there's no chance of it happening without the tuba being where it's supposed to be.

There are two primary ways that an audience can be wowed by an instrumental performance. One of them is via phrasing, which means going beyond the instructions on a page and utilizing endless subtleties to add tremendous meaning to the music. Another way is through remarkably fine intonation - which allows things mentioned in the previous paragraph to occur, and nothing in this paragraph has anything to do with the tuba necessarily, but with music in general. This paragraph applies to all styles of instrumental music, and (of course) to vocal music.

DonO. wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:10 am It would be hard to go wrong with a Miraphone 1291! It checks all your boxes. If cost is a factor, perhaps not.

Thanks, yes, I know the Miraphone 1291 and 191 exist and check my boxes, but have never seen a used one near Denmark for sale. New price is prohibitive, unfortunately. ...

I remember having seen a German manufactured 5/4 Bb tuba with a diagonal 5 valve block, but cant remember the manufactory or model. ....

marccromme wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:54 pm

DonO. wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:10 am It would be hard to go wrong with a Miraphone 1291! It checks all your boxes. If cost is a factor, perhaps not.

Thanks, yes, I know the Miraphone 1291 and 191 exist and check my boxes, but have never seen a used one near Denmark for sale. New price is prohibitive, unfortunately. ...

I remember having seen a German manufactured 5/4 Bb tuba with a diagonal 5 valve block, but cant remember the manufactory or model. ....

Probably a Miraphone 289:

https://www.miraphone.de/bbb-tuba-39.html

I've posted about this before, but it would be interesting if Miraphone offered more bore sizes between 19.6mm and 21.2mm

20mm or 20.5mm might (??) do some interesting things with some of their models...maybe even the one pictured...(??)

marccromme wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:52 pm Yes, I am living in Copenhagen, Denmark.

Have you asked Thomas Røisland with the DR Symfoniorkestret https://www.drkoncerthuset.dk/ensembler ... orkestret/?

Let´s not forget the obvious:
BBb, in general, looks more intimidating than its CC counterpart (just compare a pair of Rudy Meinls to see what I mean), and a 5th valve will increase that effect due to a barrier of plumbing between you and the conductor.
Raises chances he might just shut up and let you do the work...

Setting that aside:
A 5th valve on a CC improves playability of repertoire to the point you´ll hardly find a CC-tuba in a store without it, no matter what the ambitions of the adressed markets may be.

A 5th valve on a BBb is rare on stock, but every manufacturer has a design ready to install a 5th upon demand.
Shows that on a BBb, life ist still comfortable "enough" to get by with four valves in both pro and advanced amateur settings.

As an amateur having used both CC and BBb mostly in wind orchestras as well as traditional march-waltz-polka environment:
Get a BBb, and look for a 5 valve specimen.
Paired with your already existing EEb, this will offer most versatility and make life the easiest.

marccromme wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 8:37 am

matt g wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 8:23 am ...
I agree completely that there could be some bias. I also think that the slow downfall of King/Conn has led to an increase of demand on other mXxranufacturers. Yamaha is simply too expensive compared to other brands and isn’t winning bids like they used to.

Interesting how a specific question again drifts off to the realms of assumptions and unrelated guessings.

Please lets get back to my question. Would for example a Cerveny 601 CC offer better intonation over a 601 Bb? ? Better alignment of partials?Assuming both have 5 valves, that is.

Are there trends in the different 5/4 size contrabass tubas with respect to response, intonation and partials if comparing similar models in CC or BB?

As told, I happily learn new fingerings, no problem.

Individual instruments vary too much to really know, I suspect.

For example, Bb Holton 345’s generally play in tune better than the C model. But there are stinkers and gems in both groups.

My suspicion is the Cerveny 601 models will be as variable as the Holtons were, but I’ll bet the Bb model was generally more in tune than the C.

I don’t know about the Rudi Meinl 5/4, which comes both ways. I think the enormous 6/4 was only ever made in Bb. Rudis are not known for perfect intonation any more than Cervenys or Holtons, irrespective of key.

How many other companies made 5/4+ tubas in both keys? Miraphone has Bb and C versions of the 186 but larger instruments of each length were unique.

I think you’ll have to try instruments individually and if you find a Bb that works for you, you’ll know what to do.

Rick “trends provide poor advice about individuals” Denney

Hej Marc!

I have seen that 104 and thought about it (a lot) but the price seems a little prohibitive.... 5v BBb or CC tubas does not come up for sale a lot here in DK (probably less than one per year?).

Maybe I am stating the obvious, but have you asked Ulrik at Brass Centrum what he has lying around (or knows to be for sale)? Otherwise, it seems that you have to take a roadtrip to Hamburg or Berlin. If you are lucky you might only have to go to Gothenburg (or Stockholm)..... Berlinertuba might be able to point you in the right direction.