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I’m finding this idea of exceedingly polite deference in the USA runs counter to much of my experience of dealing with folks from the States (either in person or on-line). However, to be fair, the USA is very large and must surely have differing social norms from place to place, region to region, state to state, etc.

In parts of the UK blunt speaking is the norm and in others much less so. That aside this idea that someone - a sensible someone - speaking up wastes the time of the rest of the group is surely a nonsense. Individuals go to such groups to enjoy collective music making and if something’s not right then it needs to be corrected - as best as is possible. Perhaps that’s the Brass Band player in me speaking; those that play in contesting Brass Bands are really serious about winning and they know that when they play in a contest they’re up against critical judgment that’ll penalise them for every little error. There’s no room for sensitivity, perfection is aimed for, to win your Band’s performance has to be the best in the contest, and if a conductor or player isn’t ‘up to snuff’ they’re warned and then (unless they improve enough) replaced. The Brass Band that I play in doesn’t contest but for us - and it’s the norm elsewhere too - that desire for the best possible performance remains, we have (high) expectations of ourselves and those that play with us.

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This whole thread is really interesting and educational for me. I never had any formal music training beyond high school or college playing experience. I guess I am lucky to have found groups over the years that suited. I have mostly played in street or HONK bands, jazz and swing ensembles, a number of smaller groups etc. I am used to just being able to yell out "That sounded like $&#+ let's run it again" or "I screwed the pooch on that one, can we take it at B" of my favorite "I'll buy the next round if the trumpets get it right this time"


The couple times I sat in on community band or orchestra I felt out of place. Glad I was just smart enough to not make a real ass out of myself.

peterbas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:42 am

BramJ wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:06 am Yea, "we" Dutch can be a bit more direct ;)

I am from the south, Limburg, generally we are not so direct as for instance people from the North and South Holland provinces.

Limburg also, but on the right side of the border, being the left side.

Yea, but still, could be worse :p
I have quite a few colleagues from Belgium, it takes them some time to adjust

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In the U.S. we have a saying: "You'll never work in this town again! (unless they need you)"

*WARNING* HIGHLY OPINIONATED RESPONSE FOLLOWS!!

Assuming the note issue is NOT ironed out by concert time:

Honestly, it is not your job; it is the music director's job. If the MD can't, or won't, do anything about it, keep it to yourself. If it really goes off the rails, ask the MD to meet for coffee or lunch (YOU buy), to explain your frustration with the situation. WHATEVER you do, DO NOT mention sections or players. AND, unless your section is note perfect, be ready for the old, "Well, you ain't doing so good yourself," reaction.

I would not go to another section leader to discuss this. How would YOU feel if the roles were reversed? If another section principal came to ME to complain, I'd tell them to go jump in Lake Como (but not so politely).

If you really cannot stand it, go play somewhere else.

2¢

Respectfully Submitted,
TC

For those of you looking to get better at trolling...
Try to make your trolling premise be at least 55% actually true.
Those are the very best ones.

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LibraryMark wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 9:26 am
This particular instance is indeed a misprint on the first trumpet part. Measure 18 of Morton Gould's Jericho. It's a straight-up D major chord, and on the score and the recording the top trumpet is playing a concert F#. The part is written G natural (Concert F).

I looked at the part, said to the player, "You are indeed playing the note on the page, but I am certain it is not right". I asked the player to talk to the director about it thinking that a quick confab between the two of them would be the best way to resolve it. For some reason the player seems to think that it's not an issue, but damn - it sticks out like a sore thumb.

If this had been operator error instead of a typo, I would have kept my mouth shut hoping that the player (who is decent-ish, just not the best ears) would discover on his own.

My underlining.

If challenged then the player says I’m playing what’s on my part - so somebody else’s fault. If (the music is) altered by the player then he risks mis-correction; perhaps I’m either misreading the situation or over critical but the guy’s not much of a ‘person’. I think he should do what’s right, but he might engage brain first and then ‘find’ some courage.

I try to not complain.
When I've been hired to do things - whether on a part-time or full-time basis - and the job was misrepresented, I just left. When I was in my early twenties and hired to teach at a large university, things weren't as represented, and - at the end of the year when I told him I wasn't coming back, the person who hired me spent at least ten minutes chewing me out and bringing up all sorts of petty things - such as my wife's car (not enough income to either repair it or buy a better car, but what does that have to do with me carrying out my duties for which I was hired?) dripping oil in the gutter out in the street in front of their house. I'm now remembering that - during that ten minutes - I was also chewed out for chuckling at a super loud plaid jacket that their former teacher (a great player and a really nice person) wore when performing a trombone concerto with a band. At that point, I knew that that job wasn't suited for me, because that person obviously expressing anger that I wasn't going to come back, and therefore the job wasn't as good a job as I would have been as a person to fill it.
I've done the same thing with individual customers. People who demonstrated themselves to be bad customers weren't allowed to be customers after that.
Shouldn't the same thing go for things that we do as hobbies and to pass the time? If they are not pleasureful, then shouldn't we look towards either another hobby, or a better place to enjoy that hobby? What good is it to complain to others about things that obviously aren't important enough to them to have already addressed?

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 11:14 am I try to not complain.
When I've been hired to do things - whether on a part-time or full-time basis - and the job was misrepresented, I just left. When I was in my early twenties and hired to teach at a large university, things weren't as represented, and - at the end of the year when I told him I wasn't coming back, the person who hired me spent at least ten minutes chewing me out and bringing up all sorts of petty things - such as my wife's car (not enough income to either repair it or buy a better car, but what does that have to do with me carrying out my duties for which I was hired?) dripping oil in the gutter out in the street in front of their house. I'm now remembering that - during that ten minutes - I was also chewed out for chuckling at a super loud plaid jacket that their former teacher (a great player and a really nice person) wore when performing a trombone concerto with a band. At that point, I knew that that job wasn't suited for me, because that person obviously expressing anger that I wasn't going to come back, and therefore the job wasn't as good a job as I would have been as a person to fill it.
I've done the same thing with individual customers. People who demonstrated themselves to be bad customers weren't allowed to be customers after that.
Shouldn't the same thing go for things that we do as hobbies and to pass the time? If they are not pleasureful, then shouldn't we look towards either another hobby, or a better place to enjoy that hobby? What good is it to complain to others about things that obviously aren't important enough to them to have already addressed?

Quoted for TRUTH!

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peterbas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:31 pm So I sit next to a retiree whose playing has degraded to pretty badly but he is almost always present, is nice to talk to and is probably the best grandfather in the world for his autistic grandson (starting trombone) and support for his daughter (great saxplayer).
So what to do, tell him off every note he misses or plays wrong or every now and then nicely correct him on his mistakes that really stick out?
I like the choose for the latter.

I sit next to a tuba player who quite often rushes, and I mean beats ahead. I don't say anything about that because I know that at his age (75) there is probably nothing that can be done. He also pulls out his tuning slide to empty spit and sometimes pushes it all the way in when it should be out an inch and a half. I do remind him that his slide is in all the way because it's an easy fix and he appreciates being reminded about it. Another section member always catches my mistakes and I appreciate it because I should be a better player than that. She is a fine player and is always right. Fact is every one in my section is willing to listen and wants to improve.

The issues that started this whole thread has been addressed, and the trumpet player thanked me for being "so engaged" and that he "values my musicianship". I am of the opinion that there is no reason to stop improving and stop learning, even if if it's in just a community band. As long as it is done with sensitivity, intelligence, and tact we should all help each other to learn and grow as musicians.

peterbas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:31 pm every now and then nicely correct him on his mistakes that really stick out?
I like the choose for the latter.

and - strongly suspecting you to be a person of kindness and tact - in a whisper

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I've spoken often of sitting in with a community band from time-to-time (which generously allows me to do so) but avoiding their dress rehearsals (etc.) as I deem it rude to play at a dress but not play the concert (as I avoid playing their concerts, because I view those as being truly "theirs"...EVEN THOUGH they continuously tell me that I'm welcome to play their concerts with them).

They are getting MUCH BETTER at this (as the director has been pushing for higher standards, and more art-based repertoire), but - when I was first sitting in - I would find myself suddenly ahead (due to tendencies to drag - during difficult passages as well quieter passages, etc., etc...) I finally realized that - IN THOSE REHEARSALS - there was (less, now: re improvement) a "delecate balance" between keeping the pulse and "playing with the band". As a bass player (jazz trios/quartets/septets/bands/etc.), I always viewed myself as RESPONSIBLE for interpreting and maintaining the pulse (including in orchestras and bands - where it is indicated by someone on a podium)...but not in that particular group...so I had to RESPECT that flaw (or not participate)...so I respected it...and - AGAIN - it's gotten BETTER (and good for them).

here:
a classic/well-known example of (even if the DIRECTOR was ATTEMPTING to keep the pulse with their baton) if I didn't play with the band, I would end up leaving them at least 1 (or 1.XXX) beat behind.

ok...
ALSO, the director choose to play this movement (in my opinion) too fast (probably somewhere c. 128 bpm - vs. my in-my-head ideal of c. 116 bpm), but (nope) none of my bidnuss...

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On the wrong note theme, we were playing Four Scottish Dances tonight, and there was a clearly cacophonous chord near the end of one of the movements. The 2nd euph player stuck up his hand and said he thought maybe they should have an E natural instead of an Eb (treble clef.) Conductor had us all play and hold that chord, and yeppers that was supposed to be an E natural. Tubas had a D (concert) so our D with them off a half step was truly ear splitting. Since we were just reading, wrong notes were ignored but he knew he had played what was written and it didn't fit. One of the euphs in my TE4tet. Almost everything in this incredibly fun and rewarding band is dealt with with humor. It works.

As a former HS band director I can't stand hearing the same wrong notes or rhythms in the same places over and over again. So, what I've done on "very rare" occasions in our community band is this........ if the mistakes are constantly made in the same places, I simply raise my hand and ask to go back to that "area" and play the phrase, chord, or whatever again, just for me. If it doesn't get recognized and corrected, I ask to go back, play it again and hold the specific note/chord. I ask this under the guise of me possibly making the mistake, or just not understanding the phrase. What usually happens next is either the conductor.... or other people in the band, react to the sound. At that point the conductor usually makes the needed correction. No harm, no foul..... and at least embarrassment, if any, is reduced to the minimum possible.

Most of the mistakes will resolve themselves as the group becomes more familiar with the music. I used to give my bands two or three chances to correct mistakes themselves before I got down to going through the sections to find the culprit. And before that, I'd usually just make a general statement about correcting the specific wrong note in a section..... trombones, trumpets, clarinets, etc. In other words, point out the mistakes and give the members a chance to correct them on their own. It's less hassle, and it allows the player so save face BEFORE being singled out in front of the group. I've also taken the time to go through the sections and make each member circle "possible" trouble spots BEFORE we even rehearsed the piece in order to avoid needless extra rehearsal corrections later on.

Yes, it's definitely the responsibility of the conductor to correct any and all mistakes, and obviously, the players themselves have a responsibility, too. HOWEVER, not all conductors are equal. Some will often get a little nervous in front of a group...... and yes, I know that sounds kind of strange, but it's true. Additionally, some conductors are not very well prepared to lead a group, but they don't really know it!! For whatever reason, they are swinging the baton! Those ones are usually just thankful to hear any assemblance of the piece being rehearsed.

And finally, you'll be dealing with all types of egos!!
Make your own decisions about suggesting corrections, etc., if and when speaking up. If it's a pro "paid" group I'd definitely keep my mouth shut. If it's a non-paid community band.... different story.

Agree or disagree, it just my opinion. YOU have to decide what YOU as a band member want the audience to hear, and what impression you want them to leave the performance with. I've sat in the audience countless times and, in my own mind, critiqued performances....... many of which were bad, simply because of uncorrected player mistakes that could have been erased with a little more attention to detail.

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