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Decoding the fifth valve spatula position (and for whatever reason it was done (either a bum left hand, or the desire to manipulate the #1 slide on-the-fly) is pretty simple:

The 5th and 1st spatulas are extremely close.

The player either depresses the "first" valve spatula normally, or reaches over with the index finger and depresses the "fifth" valve spatula, or depresses both the #5 and #1 spatulas at the same time.

I think you would need a spatulated first finger to hit both at once.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:19 am I think you would need a spatulated first finger to hit both at once.

Given the roughly 1/16th of an inch gap and the typical ape hands of most of the dudes in this forum it’s probably not too hard to get both down at the same time.

I'll see if I can manage two for one.

It's very easy to play 5+1 with the index finger alone. It doesn't present a very useful combination, but you can do it.

Stryk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:21 amCONGRATS! Welcome back to the club of Alex owners!

This!

I believe those clocksprings are a later version. Mine have tension adjusters, which I've only seen on very early 20th century or earlier tubas.

Červený's CEP 831 oval baritone had clock springs with tension adjusters, still in their catalogue. It isn't necessarily like a bad idea that was quickly abandoned, it could be more of a deluxe model feature.

Blake,
Assuming that all five valves down is double low B natural, that's probably the only time you push both. Other times you would reach over past the first valve and push the fifth.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:47 am Blake,
Assuming that all five valves down is double low B natural, that's probably the only time you push both. Other times you would reach over past the first valve and push the fifth.

Since it's a 2-step 5th valve, all five nets a somewhat sharp pedal C. I'm unfamiliar with the 2-step 5th so I will definitely have to do some work with a tuner to see what's useful. I seem to recall using 125 for a better in-tune Db/C# on an old Mirafone 184 I had.

donn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:18 am Červený's CEP 831 oval baritone had clock springs with tension adjusters, still in their catalogue. It isn't necessarily like a bad idea that was quickly abandoned, it could be more of a deluxe model feature.

I admire your use of diacritics. Yeah, with a boutique maker like Alexander who will make basically anything for anyone if they want it, it seems like a wayward path to attempt to date this tuba by the clockspring mechanisms. Maybe I will shoot Alexander an email and see if they can provide any insight.

What we do know:
- handmade / weighs a scant 20 lbs even with the fifth valve
- non-adjustable clockspring levers
- giant receiver
- gold brass (maybe? definitely seems more reddish than my last Alex), unlacquered
- 2-step 5th valve that was converted from left hand to right hand index finger with non-Alex parts
- came from WA

It seems the Charles Coffinger mentioned by @Tim Jackson in a previous post has passed away as of a couple years ago.

Were it that I felt the necessity to preserve that mouthpipe, I would probably remove it, have someone duplicate it (with the small end tapering down to a c. .530" bore - just before the STANDARD SHANK receiver) and put the original in a crush-proof box.

Let me defend my proposed tack in this way:
If you came across a pretty darn good playing vintage 186 C, would you replace it's mouthpipe tube with one with a ginormous mouthpipe and ginormous receiver?

Good idea - maybe if you put the word out, someone would like to trade their good playing vintage 186 C, for that Alexander. Then you'd have the right size leadpipe, and the tuba it was made for.

I might give you a C+ in smartassing for that, but I've owned one of those instruments with a gigantic mouthpipe, and I was finally able to use it after I put a straight 4 inch tapered insert in the front end of the pipe which caused the small end to be more like the overwhelming majority of other instruments out there. I think there's a reason why most who have played old Alexander tubas - as well as new ones - like the new ones much better, and I would wager it's not because they are shinier. I've also noticed that most of the older ones (that people have shown me, asking me to try their instrument, because it plays so much better than some of the other old ones) feature more conventional mouthpipe tubes.

The same thing happened with model 2165 tubas. The first thing that was done to make them more accessible to the overwhelming of majority of players (and regardless of player ability level) was to come out with the model 2265, which featured a more conventional (rather than crazy ginormous) mouthpipe, then the next step was to come up with a more conservative taper into the large bows - which resulted in the model 6450. It's not exactly my cup of tea, but people rave about the model 6450 and not all that many people rave about the 2165 model or the 2265 model, even though (as with the giant mouthpipe Alexanders) some people have left them as they are and deal with them and whatever ways they've managed to deal with them...

...so you can consider your post having been a successful troll, since I responded to it. Give yourself one in the plus column.

Finally managed to haul this to rehearsal last night, rehearsing outside by the beach with a cool breeze off of Long Island Sound and escaping the heat dome over New England right now.

The clocksprings are a bit too slow to play the 16th notes in Stars & Stripes, so I might get some coins to get some more leverage on the paddles.

Unfortunately, one of the thumbscrews snapped off (failed solder joint looks like) of the 2nd valve during rehearsal and I was dealing with that all night.

I bought a Doug Elliott A+ shank mouthpiece to use with this, and intonation became much more tenuous after abandoning the super shallow provided Alex mouthpiece. Also, it just barely plays up to A=440, which in a community group that means I might as well have been playing at A=438.

All that said, it sounds fantastic, and one of the nice things about it is that there is no real difference in feel for the 1-3 G and the 1-3 D in the staff. G is lippable open (10-20c flat) but D is unusable with first valve alone -- registering on my tuner as a very sharp C#.

The current plan is to have the MTS and first valve slide trimmed just a bit and get the fifth valve swapped to thumb-operated. I think I will leave it at the two-step length for now.

Congratulations on your new purchase! The horn looks fantastic. I was interested to read about the history of your horn. I wonder if the original owner was Fred Geib?

I won't say "my two bits" because this is not a souzy. I will suggest that you look to see the actual geometry of the 5th valve slide. The reason is that maybe you can retain the original slide that intones 2+3, and simply have a new slide made for the flat whole step we are all now accustomed to. Yes, from looking at the linkage, it appears to have been converted from 4+1 at one point, so taking that back is necessary.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 7:15 am I won't say "my two bits" because this is not a souzy. I will suggest that you look to see the actual geometry of the 5th valve slide. The reason is that maybe you can retain the original slide that intones 2+3, and simply have a new slide made for the flat whole step we are all now accustomed to. Yes, from looking at the linkage, it appears to have been converted from 4+1 at one point, so taking that back is necessary.

Thanks, I have thought about this in a similar tack. The actual slide for the 5th valve circuit is actually very short and visible on the front of the instrument right next to the 1st valve slide. Most of the length of the 5th valve circuit is located in the back of the instrument where it is nestled close to the valve section. It does have a ferrule, which indicates a point at which a cut could occur, but honestly, playing 235 for low F and maybe 125 for C#/low F# is not going to be a huge dealbreaker for me.

If I didn't have all these school instruments to unsmush, if I liked Alexander tubas, if I wanted to keep that one, if I didn't steer clear of them to buy - even for flipping, I would have already straightened that thing out.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:10 am If I didn't have all these school instruments to unsmush, if I liked Alexander tubas, if I wanted to keep that one, if I didn't steer clear of them to buy - even for flipping, I would have already straightened that thing out.

Headed to Shires (well, a Shires person) after the 4th to get everything sorted out.

That sounds great. I believe I read that you said that it's a good player.

arpthark wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 6:48 pmHeaded to Shires (well, a Shires person) after the 4th to get everything sorted out.

By any chance would that be a fella named Paul?