3 valve compensating sousaphone

[Mary Ann]

Ok, this is not about RP or two sided tape, but: given that all brass instruments have slots, some slots are wider than others, how can someone do charts like Werden did and "know for sure" that they are playing in the middle of the slot, or am I making a false assumption, and what they are doing is playing "within the slot" without "conscious" lipping? A strong embouchure can make an instrument play the buzzed pitch other than in the center of the slot. MANY players tend to play at the top of the slot because it feels more secure.
Another engineer amateur question.

[arpthark]

Ok, this is not about RP or two sided tape, but: given that all brass instruments have slots, some slots are wider than others, how can someone do charts like Werden did and "know for sure" that they are playing in the middle of the slot, or am I making a false assumption, and what they are doing is playing "within the slot" without "conscious" lipping? A strong embouchure can make an instrument play the buzzed pitch other than in the center of the slot. MANY players tend to play at the top of the slot because it feels more secure.
Another engineer amateur question.

You can read his methodology here which tackles some aspects of your question: https://www.dwerden.com/forum/davewerde ... intonation

[Richard III]

This is a red herring. The only way this kind of data set would be real evidence of intonation differences between compensating and non-compensating is if you took the exact same make/model, made by robots (and not handmade, to eliminate variation), and built it in different valve configurations. The only telling factor about the Adams Sonic vis-à-vis its valve setup would be as compared to a 4-valve compensating Adams Sonic with the same specs.

The Sonic vs. the Adams E1 is an exact comparison of euphoniums, one comp and one non-comp. I posed a question on Dave Werden's site regarding this issue. His answer is below.

https://www.dwerden.com/forum/forum/eup ... euphoniums

Also, the perception of intonation is apparently not always reality. I play tested euphoniums on the list of ones he has tested. I thought some of them had splendid intonation, yet his testing revealed profound differences.

[LeMark]

I wish Dave would add a king 2280 to his list. The two I have owned have had excellent intonation, in fact I sold a marvelous Adams E3 with short action valves because I thought the king did everything the adams could do for a fraction of the cost. (once I added the 5th valve)

I still stand by the statement that the valves have nothing to do with intonation unless you are actually using your compensating valve. Dave mentioned that the non compensating horn plays freer, which I agree with, but that just means it doesn't feel as stuffy. That's different than intonation tendencies.

Also... a non compensating instrument will have lighter, faster valves.

[MiBrassFS]

I think Dave Werden does some great stuff and he’s a good player. This is no criticism of him or the things his site presents, but…

None of us are neutral. We bring with us physical, mental, aural, etc. tendencies that affect not only tone, but intonation. Many people perceive themselves as “the neutral,” but they’re not. The goal is to play in the middle, but it doesn’t always happen. Any opinion/info from people who present themselves as “the neutral” should be taken with this in mind. No one’s chart or result is universal.

[bloke]

I respect Mr Dave a lot too, but I just don't believe that any intonation tests are going to be absolutely accurate, because there is so much that we can do with our mouths regarding pitch, particularly when we personally don't wish to embrace the fact that particular pitches on our own instruments are really not centered in tune. I also think that with amateurs, students, and others there's a little bit of an overtendency to view professional players as gods - rather than as humans who are also flawed players and even flawed thinkers who simply have worked harder at playing better and have had more experience. More experience, better playing, and etc. do not mean that someone knows everything and does everything perfectly. It also doesn't mean (and I'm not picking on Dave at all, because I've seen so many professionals claim so many things that I view as dubious, now that there is social media... and I will readily admit to having fooled myself) they are not subject to fooling themselves from time to time. I try to be aware of these things about myself, and I'm not claiming to be anything that I'm not in this paragraph.

I've talked about my great big rotary B flat playing so well in tune and it does, but I have to do a lot of first slide moving to get that to happen, and it plays extremely easily in tune but not without me getting it in tune.

As far as Adams euphoniums are concerned, I've played a couple of them and they play very smoothly. There's a not abused and not much played Swiss compensating euphonium here which is believed to be about the same as the run of the mill Adams euphonium. There are a few reasons why it's not playing and they are not due to damage. This is an instrument that I would like to get going and maybe even looking as new regarding the silver plating this fall, and see about whether it's something that I would want to substitute for the one I own, or offer for sale. I feel like once I get that thing put together I might have more insights regarding Adams. Of course, it could be that Adams altered the Swiss tooling based on one of those best compromise intonation computer programs that are available today, but I tend to suspect that Adams bought the tooling from Switzerland, set it up, and started making euphoniums, because the Adams 4/4 size C tubas that they make with Swiss tooling - in my experience - don't perform any better - intonation-wise - than those which were assembled in Switzerland.

I personally own a crazy large compensating euphonium that was maligned decades ago and sort of abandoned by Melton, but having spent time with it and correcting a couple of arithmetic errors they made in the cylindrical tubing (along with coming to the realization that the front side slides on it have to be pulled out a great deal in comparison to other makes, as they built it allowing for a great deal of pull) about all I have to do to play it in tune is to play the two lower G naturals with third valve, and with no desire to attach one of those trigger gadgets, so I can see instruments getting possibly an undeserved extra-extra good rap, just as this one received an extra-extra bad rap. This one deserved it, but it's problems were very easily remedied via a little bit of analysis and a little bit of alteration...

... and back to the topic of sousaphones with three compensating valves and allowing for sousaphones' excellent false tones as supplying the low range, I still believe that this is all that schools really need for students, as far as what taxpayers should be expected to supply, and it doesn't matter whether it's a so-called poor state or a so-called rich state. People don't need to be turned upside down and have all the money shaken out of their pockets just because they have more money, and children don't need to be treated as if they are exceptionally brilliant and supplied (certainly not by those other than their own parents) with professional or even semi-professional instruments, and - even though I live with it here - the very idea of having separate instruments for marching and concert (along with spending a considerable percentage of a million dollars a year on a marching show) causes me to roll my eyes.

[humBell]

I thought i'd submitted a response, but i must not have...

I approve of this. Perhaps not in the roll out a hundred of them and sell them in Texas scale of doing, but certainly in the make one for purposes of informed discussion.
And it woulda only been a little off topic, and can start a new thread if i should, but what do folk think of the antoniophone, which is usually pictured with comp valves?

But i suppose there aren't enough of those around either to try one and basee one's opinions on direct experience.

[humBell]

Geometry-wise, how does the valve set fit in the sousa wrap?

Can you put it all in a plane, as it were?

Also are comp valve sets cylindrical? Or is one valve loop larger bore than another? Gives ya layout flexibility if you can reverse airflow direction without changing sound...

[arpthark]

And it woulda only been a little off topic, and can start a new thread if i should, but what do folk think of the antoniophone, which is usually pictured with comp valves?

But i suppose there aren't enough of those around either to try one and basee one's opinions on direct experience.

For the curious (like me): http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=95280

[Grumpikins]

Question. Is it really necessary to do all that work to align the valves? Wouldn't they be playable as is? Just a different hand orientation for sousa. I also recall seeing a couple pictures of some late 1800s??? helicons with the valves oriented in such a way.

Anyway, interesting idea. Worth a try. All opinions and sciencey stuff aside, it could work great. Just like bumble bees.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[bloke]

yeah...

I'm being epically redundant, but...

- Taxpayers are being raped, paying for super-fancy equipment for children, as well as TWO SETS of equipment for children. Further, it's not fair to force taxpayers to fund things in which the majority of taxpayers are not-in-the-least interested. (Believe it or not, most taxpayers are not particularly interested in school bands nor marching bands.)
- Sousaphones are FULL-SIZED tubas, and were used in professional bands during THE ERA WHEN WIND BANDS WERE ACTUALLY POPULAR.
- If tastes have changed, supply sousaphones with auxiliary 18-inch upright bells for use indoors.
- A three-valve compensating would keep the weight of sousaphones reasonably in check (for outdoor use) and - (again) as the "false tones" are SO VERY accessible on sousaphones, there's no need for 4 valves, 5 valves, nor a 4+1 compensating system. The 3-valve compensating system would allow 3-valve sousaphones (or tubas) to play just as well in tune in "sharp" keys as flat keys.

Even if these cost $12K each, that's an improvement over a bunch of $10K sousaphone (if USA or Japan, whereas JP is much less, but whatever on that...) PLUS a bunch of $12K (if European/Japanese), $8K (if USA), or $7K (if Chinese) "concert" instruments.

yes...all caps:

1/ SOUSAPHONES WERE DESIGNED TO BE "CONCERT" INSTRUMENTS, AND WERE USED IN THE MOST FAMOUS "CONCERT" BAND OF ALL TIME !
2/ CHILDREN SHOULD BE DEALT WITH AS WHAT THEY ARE: CHILDREN, AND SHOULD NOT BE HANDED (AT NO PERSONAL EXPENSE TO EITHER THEM OR THEIR PARENTS) TOP-GRADE ADULT/PROFESSIONAL EQUIPMENT TO USE FOR "LEARNING".

[iiipopes]

1/ SOUSAPHONES WERE DESIGNED TO BE "CONCERT" INSTRUMENTS, AND WERE USED IN THE MOST FAMOUS "CONCERT" BAND OF ALL TIME !
2/ CHILDREN SHOULD BE DEALT WITH AS WHAT THEY ARE: CHILDREN, AND SHOULD NOT BE HANDED (AT NO PERSONAL EXPENSE TO EITHER THEM OR THEIR PARENTS) TOP-GRADE ADULT/PROFESSIONAL EQUIPMENT TO USE FOR "LEARNING".

Agree. For decades until just before I graduated, my high school used sousaphones in concert band as well as marching band. We started band in 5th grade, and the elementary band students only got baritones, no tubas, until junior high, and then on a Wenger chair. It wasn't until high school players were allowed to navigate the souzys separately.

[bloke]

I need to STOP being SO VERY redundant, but (as with a very redundant talk-jock on the radio) I tend to repeat myself, as not everyone sees every thread.

The foreground player was using (in my personal opinion) the "least" of the US sousaphones (Holton) and the "least" version (fiberglass).
He was in the 9th grade, and - that year was the 1st chair Tennessee All-State player. They didn't play "graded band pieces" in All-State concerts during that era...They played (me having located an old l.p. on eBay) stuff like Holst Suite 1, etc. The guy in the background (a senior) was 6th chair All-State, and had been 1st chair the previous year. As seen he was playing a Conn fiberglass.

Particularly the foreground person (if any of you believe that "playing standards are higher now than then, and he couldn't have been all that good with ABSOLUTELY NO private instruction")...he sounding like an angel, his playing was clean as a whistle, he could play theme-and-variations triple-tonguing final variations fast as lightning (ie. the same speeds as these trumpet pros' show-off online videos), and (with a school-owned fiberglass sousaphone) he auditioned into the Army (12th grade) and - a year later - was encouraged by the Army to audition for a Pershing's Own vacancy, and was given the position.

You can assume I'm exaggerating or you can take me at my word.
He (deceased) was not an "exceptional" nor "exceptionally talented" person (with his only "instruction" being singing out of a shaped-notes hymnal in his mother's Primitive Baptist church), other than using what he was given at birth, and striving to use it as absolutely best he could.
The Holton (and later Conn) fiberglass sousaphones did NOT hold him back, he played them in the All-State bands (four years...same seat) and the first tuba he owned was a 186 he bought when promoted to the D.C. band. It didn't occur to him (nor me, for that matter, nor any of us) that we weren't being supplied with appropriate equipment.

Admittedly, a 3-valve compensating system (on one of those fiberglass Conn sousaphones) would have been a nice little upgrade.

[gocsick]

The foreground player was using (in my personal opinion) the "least" of the US sousaphones (Holton) and the "least" version (fiberglass).

I feel I need to defend Holton sousaphones here. Both my BBb and Eb are real players. I can whip out the pedals and false tones easier than my buddies on their 20Ks.

[bloke]

The foreground player was using (in my personal opinion) the "least" of the US sousaphones (Holton) and the "least" version (fiberglass).

I feel I need to defend Holton sousaphones here. Both my BBb and Eb are real players. I can whip out the pedals and false tones easier than my buddies on their 20Ks.

The Holton standard 4/4 sousaphones play/sound OK, but the intonation is challenging. D/D-flat (in the staff) behave pretty well with most other common makes (though C is quite flat with the 4/4 Conn), but the (4/4) Holton ones that I've played are really low all the way across that partial...

I'm stating why I don't prefer them and not retreating to "well...notice that he moved over to the Conn, when it was available"...
I never like defending one's own views based on others' views, but prefer to defend my own views based on my own observations/experiences.

yeah...Lots of tubas are flat on those same pitches, but I don't choose those either.

Finally, I've always thought that a ban on politics (on forums such as these) are really silly as the most political things we discuss are "things that we dislike about particular makes and models", as - here - those topics are going to step on each others' toes more than any other topics.


bloke "and I do like the hearty 'whump' type of thing that a Holton sousaphone offers, but the other - in my view - overrules that."

[catgrowlB]

Back when I was in high school (1990s), we had silver King sousas, all refurbished. Two of them were H.N. White - era originals. We used them for outdoor field (football games, competitions, parades) AND for indoor concert band. They sounded glorious inside the auditorium within the large concert band -- big, warm, clear sound. Pitch and response were great on those, too.

I have a Selmer Signet sousa and Conn 14k sousa, and they are great. But I'd love to add a King or Cleveland sousa

[basshorn426]

@catgrowlB Hi, did you find the King or Cleveland you were looking for? If not, were you looking to buy or for a trade? I have a fiberglass King sousa but I'm looking for a Conn since I think it'll fit me better

[bloke]

@catgrowlB Hi, did you find the King or Cleveland you were looking for? If not, were you looking to buy or for a trade? I have a fiberglass King sousa but I'm looking for a Conn since I think it'll fit me better

Are you looking for a conn brass or fiberglass? Not that we're probably anywhere close to each other.

[basshorn426]

Either one honestly, just mainly looking for a trade since I'm not in the position to buy right now. Located in SC though

[catgrowlB]

@catgrowlB Hi, did you find the King or Cleveland you were looking for? If not, were you looking to buy or for a trade? I have a fiberglass King sousa but I'm looking for a Conn since I think it'll fit me better

Hi,

I'm in central North Carolina. I do have an old brass Elkhart-era 14k sousa, complete in its original rough shape case. The lacquer is ugly and I stripped it from the inside of the bell. Otherwise it's in good condition with no major dents. I had to get replacement bell screws, neck and bits, and a 3rd valve. I've had it for quite a while now. It plays great!

I would be OK with a trade if your King fiberglass sousa is in very good condition, preferably with a bag or case.
Let me know and I'll snap pics of the 14k if you are interested