POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

[bloke]

Today - with this tuba, I...

- finally was able to rid the instrument of a pesky piece of solder rattling around in the bugle
- tracked down a phantom creaking noise...would occur very intermittently; it was a solder joint.
- rendered the 5th valve action more reliable
- went back over the alignment of a couple of slides, and pulled them in to "true" slightly better...perhaps improving a couple of them (on one end or another) by .003" or so.
- *added a very small brace between a lower #1 circuit bow and a #3 circuit knuckle
- recorded some upcoming excerpts (not on one of my good recording devices...just on my phone) and listened - just to verify that some stuff sounded as I was perceiving it to sound (as "the sound in our heads" - yes? - can occasionally "drown out" the sound coming out of our bells). I guess (??) I was pleased, because I messaged a couple of section mates with one of them.

Guess what's fun?
- playing a B-natural below the staff - as well as a "low E" - in tune on a B-flat tuba, and doing so without having to pull out some slide, or having to "favor"
- being able to put out some massive and righteous broad-sounding racket with something that doesn't take up a whole bunch of physical space
- running out of stuff on a frankentuba's "punch list"...other than shining it up and shooting it with clear

bloke "ready for next Saturday's quintet concert, and the following weekend's season finale masterworks concert...I'm even mashing the correct buttons! I will, however, leave this thing at home - and stick with the trusty Besson recording bell E-flat - for my Mother's Day jazz quartet job...with the MAIN point of this post being that the COMPLETION of the BUILDING is only the BEGINNING of the PLAYING."

*

[bloke]

I noticed that I had a little bit of "alignment drift" (from when I "squared up" the 5th valve circuit - for cosmetic reasons - to the instrument's bugle).

The main slide also wasn't particularly well-braced, so now - not only is the alignment dialed in, but - it's also (old southern expression) "hell for strong".

What some probably don't realize is that the MORE bracing there is the MORE difficult perfect alignment is to achieve, because cooling solder joints CONTRACT and pull tubes toward the brace...thus DISTORTING (rather than securing) alignment, and requiring ANTICIPATION of contraction as well as precise PREDICTION of the quantity of contraction. This requires a bit of experience, and explains why even valvesets on $20,000 tubas feature mediocre slide tubing alignment...because it would cost the manufacturers yet another $1000 in production cost labor to trick out all the slides to near-perfection.

...but no one is charging me money, so I can trick out the slide alignment with a tuba that I build for myself.
Not only is the main slide now (pending me dropping the instrument) very stiffly-braced, but it's also remarkably well-aligned...
...which (again) is not the easiest thing to achieve, and requires just a bit of skill (down to the last 1/1000" - both parallel and coplanar).






Yes...the back cap on the rotor unscrews, and there's probably 3/10 of a millimeter clearance ("generous" )...so no take-apart braces.

I'll clip off the water key wires - someday - after I polish and shoot clear on this. I don't want to waste a bunch of water key springs...They actually cost a little bit of money.

[bloke]

For the rare moments that I'm grasping the #1 slide, I'm grasping it by its cross brace...
...and I'm doing so (not for tuning, but) to empty water...

...so I put a water key (#7) on the UPPER #1 crook, on the side that collects water.

ahh....THAT'S better.


-----------------------------------

A couple of days ago, I pulled out my own prototype "Symphony" mouthpiece (old 2-piece design, and which was only offered with a "standard" shank receiver)

I started flubbing pitches.

(This tuba's receiver (though the mouthpipe is new) is the original Holton euro shank receiver...the same receiver which was used on the model 345 tubas.)

...so I switched over to one of my "student" (silver plated brass) Symphony underparts (cup-shank integrated) which features an in-between-size shank...and the pitch-flubbing ceased.

I'm pretty sure the end of that standard shank Symphony mouthpiece must have been protruding into the mouthpipe tube, and this (1/8" of "stand-out") was enough to remedy that.

This tuba is also tons of fun to play with my Imperial cup (with standard depth rim), but - with this particular - tuba, I'm seeking something a bit more (ok to use this term, here...??) mellifluous.


This is my Sellmansberger Symphony cup and backbore (YET in silver plated brass)
integrated, but STILL with threads to receive ANY of my stainless steel rims. The shank size is
IN-BETWEEN standard and euro on this "student" set-up. With ANY un-coated stainless steel rim,
this set-up is only $200, and - if permanently bonded to an (ONLY choice) #2 profile 32.9mm-opening
stainless steel rim, it's only $165.

[Yorkboy]

I find that an original Conn Helleberg works very well with my (similar) squatty York BBb.

I’m not a big fan of the Helleberg, but it works pretty well for me on those 19.5” shorty pancake bell smaller bore horns (both Eb and BBb).

[bloke]

I find that an original Conn Helleberg works very well with my (similar) squatty York BBb.

I’m not a big fan of the Helleberg, but it works pretty well for me on those 19.5” shorty pancake bell smaller bore horns (both Eb and BBb).

The only differences between that mouthpiece (a "Helleberg") and the one that I had used (yesterday, and the day before) is a distortion (rounded out area) in the funnel shape of the cup, a reverse-taper throat, and a narrower and less-flat rim.

THE REASON that mouthpiece wasn't working out is because of the large receiver (which I reused from the pre-frankensized tuba) combined with a standard shank...
Again: The tip-end of the mouthpiece was dropping all the way into the mouthpipe tube itself.

This (otherwise: identical) mouthpiece works perfectly. I really was "cracking" a bunch of pitches, with that mouthpiece that dropped into the instrument, too far, and this one (larger shank exterior) offered instant relief from that problem.

[pjv]

Did you try a normal euro shank on this tuba? It seems like a logical choice, right?

[bloke]

Did you try a normal euro shank on this tuba? It seems like a logical choice, right?

The back-end of the o.e.m. Holton receiver fit (without having to chuck some receiver into the lathe, and put a boring bar to it...and nor without having to enlarge the small end of the mouthpipe that I made to fit this tuba) the mouthpipe that I bent to fit this instrument. It was an easy choice, and I like the "screams 'Holton' " cosmetics of this receiver.

When I grabbed that standard shank mouthpiece and stuck it in there (for a couple of days) I just wasn't thinking.

Holton euro shank receivers (again: the same receiver as was used on the 345 models) are "real" (vs. "fake") euro shank receivers.

REAL euro shank receivers either allow standard shank mouthpieces to penetrate the mouthpipe tube (or else "bottom out"), whereas

"FAKE" euro shank receivers are actually STANDARD shank receivers which are extended outward an additional 1/4th inch, so that - IF a euro shank mouthpiece is inserted - more of that euro shank's mouthpiece will be covered over by the receiver. With the "FAKE" euro shank receivers, euro shank mouthpieces (because these receivers are actually standard shank receivers "in disguise") set way back from the "choke point" (the point at which the receiver ends, and the mouthpipe begins).

As long as any individual has ______ exterior shank size available with a desired back-bore taper and throat size/shape inside of it (as do I), the receiver size really doesn't matter.


I should try to carve out some time to clean up some of these solder joints...

[pjv]

What I meant is; why did you immediately try your blokepiece with an in-between shank and not try your blokepiek with a euro shank?

[bloke]

oh...sorry !

The answer to that is because I know myself pretty well, and know that I tend to prefer almost no reverse taper (exposed receiver surface) between the end of the mouthpiece and the beginning of the mouthpipe (ie. I nearly always seem to prefer “continuous expansion“)...but that - when a mouthpiece is able to be shoved into a mouthpipe tube - usually “not good“ things happen.
(only based on experience, and with no knowledge of how it ties in with acoustics/bores/tapers/etc.
(...The in-between shank size was just enough to pull the mouthpiece end out of the mouthpipe tube.)
I surely was struggling, with that epic bore distortion occurring so early in the instrument.

What I meant is; why did you immediately try your blokepiece with an in-between shank and not try your blokepiece with a euro shank?

[bloke]

These B.A.F. (big-@$$ finger-buttons) are handy...because "they're here", but I believe I'm either going to swap them out for the larger Yamaha buttons, or my very last not-for-sale spare set of Sellmansberger lightweight finger buttons.

B.A.F. (euro/york-style) - .5 oz
Yamaha finger buttons - .4 oz.
Sellmansberger finger buttons - .2 oz.

[Doc]

These B.A.F. (big-@$$ finger-buttons) are handy...because "they're here", but I believe I'm either going to swap them out for the larger Yamaha buttons, or my very last not-for-sale spare set of Sellmansberger lightweight finger buttons.

B.A.F. (euro/york-style) - .5 oz
Yamaha finger buttons - .4 oz.
Sellmansberger finger buttons - .2 oz.

Any chance the Sellmansberger finger buttons will ever be available again, or are they available in some other iteration?

[bloke]

I'd be required to contract someone to make around 1000 of them.
If anyone wants to pre-order 700 of them (and agree in writing to not re-sell them for 3 years) , I'd be willing to have some more of them made.
There was also an issue that some of the metric stems female threads tend to be barely undersized, and no one wanted to buy a $5 M4 x .7 tap to "chase" and true up their stem threads...and yet another issue seemed to be that some of the european stem threads were some odd size - which "split the [minor] difference" between M4 x .7 and (SAE) 8-32.

Any chance the Sellmansberger finger buttons will ever be available again, or are they available in some other iteration?

I re-weighed the compact Holton B-flat tuba (after soldering on some more stuff) and then weighed the Meinl-Weston 5450 (C tuba).

Holton compact B-flat - remains at 23-1/2 lbs., with mouthpiece inserted

M-W 5450 C - 25 lbs., with mouthpiece inserted

The non-compact 5450 is easier to pick up, because there are more wide-open places to grab.

The really-nice new/very-old-stock MTS-made molded case ("just" fits the compact Holton) weighs about 18 lbs.

...so - even in a hard case - I'm not lugging much over 40 lbs. and - including ALL the small protuberances on each end (feet/handle/latch) - only 40 inches long...so "no wheels (which tend to tear up) needed"


I always lug front-action hard cases bell-to-the-back (narrow side against me),
and (because my right hand is my "playing" hand) with my left hand.

...but bloke...That's still a considerable amount of weight to lug around.

The vast majority of my gigs involve parking near a stage door, very near the venue,
or there's NEARLY ALWAYS "some guy with a golf cart"...even when hired to take the place
of on-vacation tuba players at outdoor community band gigs.

[bloke]

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11&p=20745#p20745

[bort2.0]

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11&p=20745#p20745

Post a photo of you/it in action!

[prairieboy1]

Please report back and also provide a sound sample if possible. Thanks!

[bloke]

I plan on using it next week on a performance of Bartok’s Concerto for Orchestra.
After the reading rehearsal – when the band starts to swing, and people start playing phrases, instead of poking at their notes – the bass trombone player usually records some excerpts with his tablet.
I am finding that I need to remind myself that the open bugle of this “new” B-flat instrument is 18 feet long, and it’s not that uncommon for me to be blowing through 24 or 25 feet of tubing, which is different from what I am accustomed to doing. I’m getting the hang of it, as I’ve been spending a good bit of time playing it in the blokeplace tuba room.
I used it exclusively on a quintet concert yesterday evening for an hour. I just finished up my little jazz quartet Mothers Day brunch job at a country club a few minutes ago (leaving the parking lot, now), and I did not waver from my habit of using the E-flat Besson, there (here). I play every beat of every measure at these gigs (unless I jump over to trombone, to harmonize with the lead horn), and sometimes four or six notes and a beat…and that E-flat Besson tuba’s “easy button“ is just too big, bright red, and tempting to not depress.

Please report back and also provide a sound sample if possible. Thanks!

[pjv]

Your tuba is a pretty tightly wrapped. How would you say this affects the playing experience on a whole?

[bloke]

I honestly suspect I'm mostly noticing (again) the "BB-flat/18-feet-minimum" thing, much more than how tightly-wound it is, or the 11/16" valveset bore.
Since the oval defined by the bottom bow and large upper bow is approximately a 30-inch-tall oval, that's actually more openly-wrapped than a 186.

There's good "resistance", and I tend to thrive on that...It's the "anti-St. Pete/anti-191/anti-102/anti-603" (those being wide-open-blowing/extra-large-bore), whereby (for me, personally) the “anti” being a very good thing.

The fact that I'm rarely being required to reach for a slide is really helping me to (though the "BB-flat thing" is mostly like getting back on a bicycle, and riding again - after "all these years") NOT stumble over reading music notes while mashing BB-flat buttons. About the only time I'm reaching for any slide is when I'm reaching for the upper #4 slide to play that 2-4-5 combination for low E-flat, whereas any other micro-tuning slide movements - that could possibly help just a little bit tend - to be ignored, because it's just as easy to embouchure-favor those few pitches.

I suspect that most would enjoy playing this instrument. To me, it's remarkably easy to operate, and I personally find that "easy" functions as a musical pheromone. My trombone colleague (principal at my freeway philharmonic orchestra gig, and the trombonist in the orchestra's beat-the-bushes/promote-the-orchestra-concerts brass quintet) told me that (at least, to his outdoor-non-acoustics ears) it's putting out more (not volume, as I've never been had a reputation as a timid player, but) "bass" than he's accustomed to hearing.

Tchaik 4 is up next year. The last two times I played it, I played it on that hot-rotted-for-output former-2165 (which - I’m thinking - has been sitting in Mississippi), and the most-recent time I played that Symphony on a Rudy 5/4 C with five valves and a trigger on the second valve (both of those C-tubas being just about sousaphone-sized instruments). Between the currently in-hand 5450 C and the compact Holton B-flat (which offers a very majestic sound), i’m going to have to make a decision...There could possibly be a Holton BB345 on hand (arguably, the most magnificent-sounding of all 6/4 tubas paired up with three-quarter-inch bore sizes), but in order to get the type of resonance out of that instrument that I would wish to create, would also generate a very large quantity of decibels - perhaps too many for four desks of 1st/2nd fiddles. (Tchaik 4 offers many opportunities for the tuba to shine, but certainly is not a tuba concerto.)

Your tuba is a pretty tightly wrapped. How would you say this affects the playing experience on a whole?

[bloke]

yeah...I saved back ONE set of these, just in case I ever decided that I wanted to use them on something.

Though the valveset is already sunken into the body of the tuba as far as possible, this eliminates yet another 5mm of upward finger arc, as well as 1/3 of an oz. of (however inertia would be factored) "work" for the valve springs to return to pistons to the up position.

[York-aholic]

yeah...I saved back ONE set of these, just in case I ever decided that I wanted to use them on something.

Though the valveset is already sunken into the body of the tuba as far as possible, this eliminates yet another 5mm of upward finger arc, as well as 1/3 of an oz. of (however inertia would be factored) "work" for the valve springs to return to pistons to the up position.

Nice looking set of buttons, but shouldn't they all be clocked at the same angle? Mightn't that affect the sound?