paperless

[bloke]

from the home page...

example of difficulty in locating specific programmed/scheduled repertoire:
an example: the Memphis Symphony Orchestra's site requires
- a click
- a drop-down
- another click
- a considerably scroll-down past the upcoming event to "All Events" (not a click, but a scroll...and I didn't know what was down there on that scroll...I just scrolled to SEE IF something was down there)
- a click on each individual event
- yet ANOTHER click (on a concert labeled "Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms") and - after that click
- I still did not see the names of the pieces to be performed.
- ONLY (finally) after noticing a small link labeled "Learn More" did I arrive at a list of the pieces to be performed.

I am NOT a prize-winning website-negotiator (no sarcasm, I'm actually not). That having been said, if you're able to find this orchestra's specific repertoire - on this specific site - with fewer clicks and less scrolling, that doesn't demonstrate that it's easy for everyone to find. It only demonstrates that you were able to find it more easily than did I.

I work for this orchestra (a considerable number of services per year) and (believe it or not) I'm into my 50th year of working for this orchestra.
It's the only orchestra around here with at least some salaried employees paid on a weekly basis. I wish them (very) well, hope for their continued success, and etc., but (well...) it's either me who doesn't know how to glean information off of websites easily, or it's them not laying out their site so-as desired information can be easily found, or it's possible (until someone shows me the path I should have taken) that it's just not on there.

paper:
again: I'm just not going to
- buy a $1000 (fragile) gadget for someone's else convenience
- Quality paper lasts hundreds of years, and - even quite recently - I've read German editions that (at least) date back to the 1930's. One orchestra (obviously) bought another orchestra's library - sometime in the past, because I covered the bass trombone part to Ruslan und Ludmilla on a school concert, and that music had a swastika stamped on its cover...and who knows whether that swastika was stamped on that sheet music when it was new, or when it was several years old (??).
- Digital files are not permanent (not even when stored on today's most reliable hardware). 1's and O's fall off of stored files. This is known as a file being "corrupted". I doubt that any tablet in use today will last as long as that old paper edition of Ruslan und Ludmilla, and (possibly/likely) not even the digital files (0's and 1's) which would have resulted from scanning it.
- Just as sheet music falls on the floor, $1000 tablets fall on the floor; more than a couple of my friends' tablets sport cracked screens.
- 14-inch diagonal screens maximum displays are the size of typing paper. Again, I prefer full-size old-school sheet music printed via a real printing press. It's just easier to read (both size and print quality).
- Yes, typing paper with music printed off of computer printers is crap paper and crap printing. (ref: the previous) I'm not referring to crap. I'm referring to quality paper/actually-printing-press-printed editions.


You already received all of these responses/answers/comments from me (unless you didn't), but since you obviously didn't/don't like them (absolutely insisting on an example involving "difficulty in obtaining repertoire information from orchestra websites") and choose to troll me, here I am being redundant (voluntarily allowing myself to be trolled )...but it's not all that much trouble, since I was already sitting here at my desktop computer - twiddling my thumbs for ten minutes - waiting for an immediate principal-approval in regards to a quote (an immediate need for a band director).

ok...The email just arrived, the quote is approved, so I need to put an end to this pointless blather - upon which you insisted.


bloke "with apologies to the sensible amongst us"

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

@bloke If you don't want people to respond to your opinions on matters, don't post them. This thread started about paperless ticketing and programs books. YOU insisted on making commentary about tablets that wasn't relevant to the previous discussion. YOU insisted on presenting your tablet opinion from a one sided point of view and I asked you to consider looking at it from the other side, which you refused (and still have yet to acknowledge any of its merits). And despite multiple other posters having a genuine and productive conversation amidst all of this, you still obsess about making it about YOU. I don't care if you switch to a tablet, but I do care that your opinion on the matter is not the only one heard here. Switching to a tablet may not be the right decision for you, but it may be for other people, and they should access to opinions that will help them make that decision.


Re: Memphis Symphony website

1. I asked you to provide an example, not a dissertation. That was your decision. I would have been happy with just a name.
2. It takes exactly one click to find the "Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms" program. Click "Tickets" and it takes you directly to a page that not only includes a list of the concert cycles, but all program information if available (no need to expand "Learn More".
3. The path that you found is hardly difficult, but it's not the most efficient. Every click makes sense and has very clear labeling. They could probably remove the "Learn More" click and just show the program information since that is a dedicated page. The Ticketing page is definitely a better version of the Symphony's "Concerts and Events". But no, none of that is difficult.
4. Maybe instead of whining about to strangers you could provide this feedback to the orchestra that you've worked with for 50 years?

[bloke]

back way sooner than I expected...

- Mrs. bloke already did some work that I thought I was supposed to do. (She's amazing.)
- My phone called me back in here to my desktop to sell a euphonium...now: sold/ordered/being drop-shipped...so, good
- A school is asking to be invoiced for a repair and some parts...also, good.
- I readily (already) admitted that I'm not the world's most amazing website negotiator, but neither are a whole bunch of others - and particularly not people my age who are mostly those who attend orchestra concerts. ie. telling me that I'm inept at finding my way around websites: That's no news to me. Again, I had already admitted it.
===================================================
You're still trolling, and you're not being very clever about it... and speaking of dissertations

[russiantuba]

Which goes back to my earlier point: we are so used to the downsides of paper music, we simply ignore that they exists and can’t imagine how digital music can address those issues. Here are some simple problems with print music:

- paper degrades over time, deteriorates through physical contact, tears and smudges
- it can blow away in the wind and requires significant fiddling to secure for outdoor performances
- it can become cumbersome in large volumes (any book with 100+ charts in it is a pain to handle)
- it needs to be sorted manually (digital set lists can be alphabetized and have new charts inserted easily)
- paper parts get lost (either by an individual or in the mail). If your set of parts only had one tuba part and it got lost in the mail, you’re SoL if you didn’t copy or scan it
- physical parts have to be physically distributed, either costly shipping or requiring an individual spend their valuable time traveling to pick up music. Digital parts can be distributed and received almost instantly
- paper can be copied (which typically has a slightly degraded result), but a set of physical parts is more finite in nature than digital parts (which can be printed at a more consistent quality)
- printers for high quality print jobs are incredibly expensive (there’s a reason why your local symphony likely maxes out at 12”x18” booklets, there’s a huge jump in cost to go beyond that)
- each physical part needs to be marked individually (for a fully digital orchestra, your librarian would only need to bow five string parts instead of 40+, depending on your string size)

I’m sure I could think of a few more, but I think I’ve made my point. Paper music is not perfect, and digital music addresses many of its deficiencies while bringing its own set of problems to the table.

Re: websites - I was once again asking you to provide actual evidence for claims that you’ve made, instead of just taking your word for it. I asked it in good faith so I could see exactly what you meant.

Colby,

For one, with paper music, I like seeing what others have marked on the parts that have played it, to see their musical ideas. One thing I have enjoyed recently is looking at the scanned parts on the New York Philharmonic website to see what some top named players have put in terms of performance.

With digital music (to quote you from another online outlet), you lose the "literary value" of the markings in the printed music. Yeah, might be some lost rehearsal time by people asking questions from a previous conductor or youth group, but also a lot of the printing errors have already been penciled in.

Got a last minute call to do a heavy program this week. Some of the parts are not very clearly printed on the digital copies I printed, but I like how the person who played it some time before marked the clarity of the parts in along with other "literary value" on direction.

[bloke]

That's an interesting point. I hadn't even thought about how sterile computer printed music is, but it is, isn't it?

I had a friend who always erased all the old pencil markings in the Broadway show books that we played; he even brought an Art Gum Eraser to do it. It was usually the second trombone book that he played. I was sort of sitting there wishing he wasn't doing that.

At least he didn't erase the signatures on the back page.

A couple of years ago I was playing Mahler 1. The orchestra decided to buy a new set of parts. They were full size, but they were fake - in that the paper was a color that appeared to be yellowed over time but it was just the new color of the paper, and it was inkjet printed by the publisher. It was crap, and even worse than were it printed on a piece of white typing paper. There were no old markings on it from people who played it before. There's an unmarked traditional caesura (many of you know the spot) that musicians always mark hugely with their pencils. It wasn't marked, and I almost played through it.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Colby,

For one, with paper music, I like seeing what others have marked on the parts that have played it, to see their musical ideas. One thing I have enjoyed recently is looking at the scanned parts on the New York Philharmonic website to see what some top named players have put in terms of performance.

Uhh, you see the irony with this statement, right? You can enjoy the musical ideas of past players because the New York Philharmonic maintains a digital database of them. From a technical standpoint, there's nothing stopping you from performing off of those scans.

There currently exists music reader software that allows for marking in layers (I believe forScore can do this, among others), meaning markings from various performances can be digitally preserved independent from each other, still associated with the piece in question, but easily available for reference. There also exists software (nKoda) to allow orchestras to manage their digital library in a similar manner, meaning a whole set of parts with markings can be digitally preserved.

With digital music (to quote you from another online outlet), you lose the "literary value" of the markings in the printed music. Yeah, might be some lost rehearsal time by people asking questions from a previous conductor or youth group, but also a lot of the printing errors have already been penciled in.

So the problem I have with this is that you aren't comparing like scenarios. If the digital example we are using is "fresh, unused and unmarked PDFs", then the equivalent physical example is "a new set of physical parts." Orchestras do purchase new and/or replacement sets, so this issue exists in both mediums. But in addition to clean digital copies, scanning of used sets also occurs, meaning the literary value is transferred to the digital copies as well.

The one caveat is whether PDFs are collected after a performance. If a librarian is sharing PDFs via a standard cloud-service, it is unlikely that they are collecting the PDFs afterwards and reintegrating them into the set (much like folders are collected after a concert). So the markings preserved are the originally scanned markings, not the most recent performance markings in this case.

However, orchestra management software can handle this. If digital parts are being distributed through a software like nKoda and being performed off of a tablet, those markings should automatically be preserved and can be used/referenced for the next performance.

@bloke Rental contracts typically include a clause about erasing parts. Musical contracts often require returning clean parts, sometimes including bowings. Orchestra rental contracts tend to be more lenient. In either case, what your friend was doing was probably "technically" correct, even if most people don't do it and most publishing don't care enough to enforce it. I do think it is a shame to lose all that valuable previous performance information, though there are definitely personal notes that should be erased.

[bloke]

Broadway shows carry their own music. There can't possibly be a contract regarding returning "clean parts" there, because they were never rented to any entity other than - possibly- the show itself (ie. either the property of the production company or long-term leased to the production company).

Mahler 1 isn't rental.

Have you tried any of that white cheddar cheese that Walmart sells under their house brand? It's actually amazingly delicious.

It's called Great Value white sharp cheddar cheese.
The name brand that they also carry - called Cabot - is not as good.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Broadway shows carry their own music. There can't possibly be a contract regarding returning "clean parts" there, because they were never rented to anyone.

This would be true for a touring production, presumably hiring local musicians. Even without a rental contract, there can still be an expectation that parts be returned to the company clean, since those parts will then be used by different musicians at the next location. Even so, there's still likely a rider at play, even if not a separate rental contract, that might have this request codified.

For any local productions though, music would be rented, and the contract would likely stipulate the return of clean parts.

Mahler 1 isn't rental.

I didn't say that Mahler 1 was a rental, and I agreed with your notion that new sets of parts, while easy to read (because they are clean and in good repair), lacks the institutional knowledge that comes with a used set. My point was that this problem is not unique to the digital medium and can occur in any new set of parts, digital or physical.

But since you felt the need to say that, fun fact, there are two rental editions of Mahler 1 (excluding the reduced instrumentation editions). Wise Music has one available through Novello and Universal Editions has another. The for-sale Kalmus edition we've all played looks to be a reprint of the 1906 Universal Editions, but I suspect that the rental set is a new version. I see mentions of a "New Critical Complete Edition" and a new plate number, but this is all just based on a cursory glance.

[bloke]

Being argumentative renders some much easier to troll than most other people. It's the argumentative type who nitpicks at minor points (or even subpoints of subpoints of subpoints) who can be triggered (with the drag on the reel set at a really low gear) most easily.

Personally, I find that it's probably just best to take a break after having caught a fish and thrown it back, but - admittedly - it's hard to resist throwing a line into a pond where there is a great big fat fish just sitting there waiting to grab the bait over-and-over.

If I really disliked you (which I don't, though I doubt that we could really find much common ground anywhere - and probably not even on the weather) I wouldn't let you know that I'm trolling you. I would just do it.

[russiantuba]

Colby,

The transfer of physical notation from one set to another will be lost. I thought you were a music librarian. Most of the ones I’ve worked with now send the files, musicians can print or go digital for practices and originals are provided at the performances.

If orchestras went just digital, each musician would likely keep the files and it would never be circulated. It would have clean parts every time (which could long term put you out of work).

I never said I was against digital archives. I know you think I’m some old school extremist on ancient technology, but I still use and prefer physical books. Uploading them is fine, I’m all for the dissemination of knowledge.

Going somewhat off topic but seriously still on topic, I heard someone once make a claim Atlantis had more advanced technology than we have today. It was all lost as it sunk. Though it might be a wild claim, we have learned so much about history through the physical writings that have survived. We have also been able to have great music, by composers such as Bach and Mozart, because they were written down ( I think I saw an article of where a new Mozart piece was found). We have music with markings that showed some intent of the conductors and composers.

You seem like a guy who is about the spread and capturing of knowledge, as you were big on literary value of a work. If that is the case, I’d be pushing paper. We are one major solar storm or global internet outage away from losing all of this.

[bloke]

As to the rest of "paperless", the skeletal remains of symphony orchestra concert attendees (a real phenomenon - if not in "your" city, in quite a few - as the level of sophistication of society-in-general continues to deteriorate...P Diddy...Taylor Swift...Kardashians...etc, etc...) along with the much smaller quantities of younger people who are doing a not-very-impressive job of replacing their ranks) are just going to delete emails (or - simply - not read them), are not going to go visit their local orchestras' facebook pages nor websites, but (yes...even "in these modern times") WILL hang on to a printed program (with all of it's pages of advertisements, program notes, lists of contributors, board members, musicians, office employees, E.D., M.D. resume, a "next concert" ad, car dealership/real estate agent full-page ads, and all of those sorts of things within. They will also OPEN the envelopes and LOOK at them when fliers are mailed to their homes. As far as paper tickets are concerned...yeah, those are a bit of a nuisance, and costly to print (particularly as so few - these days - purchase them in-person)...

...even 25 years ago (when I served on the board of a very active youth orchestra which played challenging repertoire...ex: Brad Gemeinhardt was one of the horn players), I came up with the idea of REUSING the paper tickets (after collecting them from patrons) and reselling them for future concerts. That wasn't "paperless", but it was "less paper".

People are TACTILE, and LIKE to have a 3D "thing" to hold and read, and - expanding something tiny on their phone screen - it's simply too much of a nuisance. I personally wouldn't bother to look at it (were some miniature pdf multi-paged eProgram sent to my phone after scanning a QR code in the lobby), but - with an impressive/glossy multiple-pages program - people (as *more than a few DO become bored during the performance of "modern" works and slow movements) WILL flip through and read those, and most will carry them home...and sure: Printing ONE SET of programs that cover ALL of the fall concerts, and ANOTHER SET of programs that covers ALL of the spring concerts (to save printing set-up costs AS WELL AS still having TWO opportunities to sell ads) does save some of the expense of printed programs.

_____________________________________________________
* sorry, Charlie...

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

@russiantuba If you think going all digital would put music librarians out of work, you don’t have a full understanding of everything that we do. The work would change in many ways, but stay the same in others.

I encourage you to re-read my previous response to you, where I specifically address the issue you’ve reiterated.

If the music distribution model is: librarian sends PDFs to players, players print parts to practice, perform, and then keep, you are correct, practice and performance markings will be lost (to the librarian, not the individual unless they destroy the parts). Without other systems in place, this tends to be the norm, largely because maintaining both digital and physicals parts effectively doubles the amount of work required by the librarian.

This is not the only distribution model available though, and if we are talking about going fully digital (no physical parts on stands), there are much better options.

At a minimum, if everyone is using a tablet (whether personal or orchestra owned) and syncing (not downloading a copy from) to a library-controlled cloud service, the original PDFs would be edited during services and stay in the cloud service hierarchy. To preserve the markings for future use, they would need to just break down the digital folders back into sets of parts in their digital library.

That’s a bare minimum version though, and there are services and applications that facilitate this process, which I’ve mentioned previously.

To again, try and draw actually appropriate comparison: how you have described handling digital parts would be like if physicals parts were handed out to musicians and the musicians just kept them. The orchestra would have to buy or print a new set of parts every cycle. There’s a reason we don’t do business this way.

The only reason we do it currently with digital files is because we are stuck transitioning between physical and digital mediums, with adoption rates still relatively low and the cost of setting up the systems not fully justified yet.

[russiantuba]

@Colby Fahrenbacher I am very familiar with music library work. An orchestra I sub with hired a new one, and during that phase, the personnel manager did a fantastic job covering the role. Digital may make it easier, but can also eventually put out of work.

A saying I heard this week in corporate America (same as academia), is you have to do more with less resources, so push more on the current salaried staff/employees.

Colby, just like the bike thing, you assume I am against the digital movement when I am not—I’m against the forcing it on people.

@Colby Fahrenbacher I am assuming I will see you in Fort Wayne in a couple weeks. Don’t be a stranger. I feel like we both have good ideas that could formulate mutual understanding of each other in person.

[bloke]

heck...
If I lived within two miles of the venue where I mostly play, (I didn't live in northern Indiana, where gets crazy cold...and I'd be willing to do the bike thing down to 30° F. or maybe a little colder, if not much wind), I had a car (for rain/ice/snow situations), and there weren't people out every single day shooting other random people - simply to prove they they will be loyal to the gang, and there were some concerts whereby I would only be using one instrument (because I just will not be talked into a bike trailer with my $XX,XXX stuff in it next to motorized vehicles), I WOULD PROBABLY RIDE MY BIKE...but that's a bunch of "ifs".

the bike advantage:
I could take it backstage, and - thus - no risk of car break-in or theft.

SEVERAL years in a row...
I played an Ole Miss commencement which was REALLY SOON after my every-Saturday-until 12:15 cruise ship embarking lounge gig (dock at the foot of Beale Street, Memphis).

The ONLY way that I could get to that gig (inside their basketball arena...well within the center of the Ole Miss campus) ON TIME...and with COUNTLESS THOUSANDS of cars in a HOPELESS traffic jam (coming-and-going to/from various commencement venues scattered throughout the campus) was to park my car at a closed-on-Saturdays insurance office (just off the southeastern corner of the campus), stick my tuba on my back, and BIKE in to the basketball arena. I would pass ALL the cars !!!! I would hear people (with their windows rolled down) saying stuff like "That guy's smart"..."I wish we had thought of that", etc...so there I was in my black suit on my black bike with my black bag...

oh yeah...This "1:21 minute drive"...
Part of the "making it on time" was having to make that drive in 55 minutes. ' thrilling.

Beale Street Dock to Ole Miss.png (166.47 KiB) Viewed 51 times

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

@Colby Fahrenbacher I am very familiar with music library work. An orchestra I sub with hired a new one, and during that phase, the personnel manager did a fantastic job covering the role. Digital may make it easier, but can also eventually put out of work.

Again, I disagree with the idea that going digital will put librarians out of work. Being a orchestral librarian is not as simple as putting music in folders and then folders on stands. It also includes:
- research and procurement of correct editions, including handling rental agreements and licensing
- communication of instrumentation needs to staff and musicians
- facilitating bowing of new parts with principal strings
- incorporation of errata, bowings, and cuts into parts (all of which take a substantial amount of time, patience, and attention to detail)
- managing a database of library assets
- working with music notation software to create new/transposed parts

As I said, some of the functions will change, but there will definitely still be a need for a specialist to handle these tasks, even if the manner in which they are accomplished changes. For example:
- instead of just managing and organizing a physical collection, a digital collection also needs to be maintained, utilizing proper nomenclature and organizational hierarchy
- typically, bowings would be manually transferred to all of the string parts from the master. In a digital library, only the master needs to be bowed
- cuts that were previously marked by hand with pencil and post-it notes can instead be marked with a stylus and adding objects to a PDF
- physical parts that were repaired with tape and white-out would instead be repaired in an application like Photoshop
- instead of ensuring that folders are in good working order, a orchestra that supplies tablets would need to ensure that the tablets are in good working order and ready to be used, which could largely fall on a librarian. A librarian is likely to play more of a role in tech support for musicians

Colby, just like the bike thing, you assume I am against the digital movement when I am not—I’m against the forcing it on people.

I have a hard time reconciling these conflicting statements because I can't imagine what supporting digitization of orchestras looks like without "forcing" it on people (and the definition of force is important here too, whatever you mean by it). If it means that members should have the choice to use physical parts, I think that (in most cases) that option will be available for a very long time, even if tablets are the primary method. I really can't comment further without knowing any more detail of what you specifically mean by this statement and what the end-state of this process would look like.

@Colby Fahrenbacher I am assuming I will see you in Fort Wayne in a couple weeks. Don’t be a stranger. I feel like we both have good ideas that could formulate mutual understanding of each other in person.

I won't be there. Best of luck.