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Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:21 am
by donn
tclements wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:54 am
This sizing thing is just a bowl of baloney.
tclements wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:54 am
I suggest this designation: small, medium, large, BAT.
How do I determine if my tuba is "BAT"? Hm, does that mean Big American Tuba? If I remember right this term is actually attributed to you, and A didn't stand for American, but it does seem to evoke the proportions of the classic oversized American tuba. And if it's to be official terminology, it would be nice if A referred to some real attribute of a tuba. I think my tuba would not earn the coveted BAT designation, and it's Italian, so that adds up.
Anyway, what you say makes sense, but the sizing thing is a bowl of baloney because occasionally people take it too seriously as a well defined category system, as you'd hope they wouldn't with small/medium/large. It probably isn't going away, and it's equally useful if not taken so seriously - maybe even more useful, since it allows intermediate values like 7/8.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:23 am
by KingTuba1241X
edfirth wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:12 am
I'm with Tony on this. The 70's retailer who started it was Fred Marrick(sp.?) who owned Custom Music and it was for the purpose of selling Rudy Meinl tubas. Tony, your designations of small, medium, large, BAT is far more realistic. Thanks for weighing in. Ed
For the internet I suppose, or even modern terminology as well too since "it's my tuba and it can identify as anything it wants to". There has to be an agreed upon scientific system of measurement. Imagine if your system of determining tuba size was how the Police determined speed on the highways? "Sir you were going REALLY fast, not just a LITTLE fast. Not Quite SUPER fast, just REALLY fast. I have no idea what the actual number was, just REALLY fast. The posted speed in this zone says you are only allowed to go KINDA fast, and REALLY fast is breaking the law, sign here".
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:52 am
by donn
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:23 am
There has to be an agreed upon scientific system of measurement. Imagine if your system of determining tuba size was how the Police determined speed on the highways?
There hasn't been and isn't going to be any such scientific system of measurement in our lifetimes, so we're just going to have to hold off on issuing citations.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:59 am
by Stryk
My 184 has decided to identify as a 6/4. #transtuba
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:02 am
by KingTuba1241X
donn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:52 am
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:23 am
There has to be an agreed upon scientific system of measurement. Imagine if your system of determining tuba size was how the Police determined speed on the highways?
There hasn't been and isn't going to be any such scientific system of measurement in our lifetimes, so we're just going to have to hold off on issuing citations.
There actually has, you just refuse to ignore it.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:05 am
by bloke
Yes, it certainly could… But in my post above, I offered a size designation that has never been used before:
5/8
I view the King 1140 - as well as all of its past and current knock-offs - as being 5/8 size:
They won’t fit in a case for a 3/4 size 14+” bell / 32+” tall 3/4 tuba case, but would flop around in a case for a 7/8 size Olds 99/Reynolds TB-10/1980’s Bach-alike/Conn 2,3,4,5,10J case.
Do you agree, then, that the 5/8 designation is of use? The Schafer/Dynasty - clearly - is a King 1140 knock-off, as is (though larger valveset bore) one of the Jupiter models.
lost wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:27 pm
I agree. And the dynasty/deg stuff I would classify as 7/8.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:09 am
by lost
I would suggest numbered size designation is no different than words like junior, standard, medium, giant, mammoth, symphony, monster, jumbo which have always been used to not only designate horns, but to sell them as well.
These terms are not universally understood nor consistent. For example a king monster tuba is largely considered a 4/4 tuba, while a York monster are what most people consider a 6/4 tuba.
The fractional size designation borrowed from stringed basses makes sense based on empirical dimensions we can actually measure. And indeed it is what tuba players use today by convention.
Considering the general public thinks a 3/4 tuba is big or large, I respectfully disagree with that system of designating tubas.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:24 am
by Kirley
It feels like home!
Anybody else getting that sentimental feeling that things are "back to normal".
You know, like how we all used to yell at each other around the dinner table.
And by "dinner table" I mean TubeNet.
Can't wait for the piston v. rotary thread!
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:44 am
by bloke
Violin, viola, cello, and bass size designations actually refer to specific body/neck lengths.
Such specificity can never be assigned to tubas.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:55 am
by LeMark
I hate these discussions, but yet, there is a solution to this problem. Measure internal volume, like they do engine blocks. (as per pjv in a previous comment)
Then you would have people bragging about their 28 gallon tuba, and looking down on someone who likes their 26 gallon tuba more
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:49 pm
by peterbas
bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:44 am
Violin, viola, cello, and bass size designations actually refer to specific body/neck lengths.
Such specificity can never be assigned to tubas.
It could be but a tuba is much more difficult to measure.
The question is if it is useful. An pro player seems to mostly decide himself which tuba he plays according to what sound he wants.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:15 pm
by peterbas
donn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:52 am
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:23 am
There has to be an agreed upon scientific system of measurement. Imagine if your system of determining tuba size was how the Police determined speed on the highways?
There hasn't been and isn't going to be any such scientific system of measurement in our lifetimes, so we're just going to have to hold off on issuing citations.
That is also because the customer doesn´t ask for it and nobody learns the customer what to ask for.
I can think of three curves that could be usefull, impedance, frequency (pp-ff) and directivity.
With the impedance curve you could see if there are any notes that don´t resonate properly or if there are leaks in the instrument. There should never again be a tuba sold without an impedance curve, stop selling lemons.
The directivity shows how broad the sound or how much the tuba projects the sound in one direction.
Frequency curves gives an indication of the color of the sound. How much harmonics and which one´s. pp and ff to see how the tuba changes sound between the two.
The latest two will need a learning curve to see how the difference of the curve relates to how the players percieve the differences. It could provide useful info to quantify the sound better then all the words we use now which means something different for everbody.
Or they don´t work and we need to look for other curves.
Research on flutes shows that the player dominates in how the flute sounds.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rsion_2020
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:36 pm
by KingTuba1241X
peterbas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:15 pm
donn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:52 am
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:23 am
There has to be an agreed upon scientific system of measurement. Imagine if your system of determining tuba size was how the Police determined speed on the highways?
There hasn't been and isn't going to be any such scientific system of measurement in our lifetimes, so we're just going to have to hold off on issuing citations.
That is also because the customer doesn´t ask for it and nobody learns the customer what to ask for.
I can think of three curves that could be usefull, impedance, frequency (pp-ff) and directivity.
With the impedance curve you could see if there are any notes that don´t resonate properly or if there are leaks in the instrument. There should never again be a tuba sold without an impedance curve, stop selling lemons.
The directivity shows how broad the sound or how much the tuba projects the sound in one direction.
Frequency curves gives an indication of the color of the sound. How much harmonics and which one´s. pp and ff to see how the tuba changes sound between the two.
The latest two will need a learning curve to see how the difference of the curve relates to how the players percieve the differences. It could provide useful info to quantify the sound better then all the words we use now which means something different for everbody.
Or they don´t work and we need to look for other curves.
Research on flutes shows that the player dominates in how the flute sounds.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rsion_2020
If the customer isn't smart enough to ask or understand what the difference between a 4/4 and a 6/4 tuba is, they sure as heck won't be asking a music shop about which horn has the best impedance curve or frequency curve. (Unless it's one of us, but I'm talking School kids or parents interested in buying a new horn).
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:58 pm
by donn
peterbas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:15 pm
With the impedance curve you could see if there are any notes that don´t resonate properly or if there are leaks in the instrument. There should never again be a tuba sold without an impedance curve, stop selling lemons.
In a casual search, I found no equipment suited to this procedure, nor even a description of what it would take. Are you aware of any example? Do they use mechanically generated tones?
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:06 pm
by bloke
I’m not going to get involved in the chest puffing nor technospeak, but there is a size designation for short (usually rotary valves) tubas with relatively fat bodies and not-the-largest bell flare diameters:
“piggy”
Originally, the term pertained to one model made by one manufacturer, but - since then - quite a few tubas - of that general shape/size - have been introduced to the market by various manufacturers, and in B-flat and C.
The Miraphone 191 and the St. Petersburg 202 both certainly fall into this size category.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:50 pm
by MN_TimTuba
I like Joe's farm animal idea, so I'm going with Bunny, Pony, Piggy, Bossie, Horsie, and Ox.
Tim
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:12 pm
by GC
Trying to force as strict definition onto fuzzy categorization is pointless.
Might as well call 'em what you want to. Everybody will anyway.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:01 pm
by peterbas
donn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:58 pm
peterbas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:15 pm
With the impedance curve you could see if there are any notes that don´t resonate properly or if there are leaks in the instrument. There should never again be a tuba sold without an impedance curve, stop selling lemons.
In a casual search, I found no equipment suited to this procedure, nor even a description of what it would take. Are you aware of any example? Do they use mechanically generated tones?
https://www.artim.at/?page_id=8&sprache=2
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:04 pm
by peterbas
bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:06 pm
I’m not going to get involved in the chest puffing nor technospeak, but there is a size designation for short (usually rotary valves) tubas with relatively fat bodies and not-the-largest bell flare diameters:
“piggy”
Originally, the term pertained to one model made by one manufacturer, but - since then - quite a few tubas - of that general shape/size - have been introduced to the market by various manufacturers, and in B-flat and C.
The Miraphone 191 and the St. Petersburg 202 both certainly fall into this size category.
Since compact wrap exist at least 100 years I´m calling this a monkey sandwich.
Re: Discussion of tuba sizing
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:14 pm
by peterbas
KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:36 pm
peterbas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:15 pm
donn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:52 am
There hasn't been and isn't going to be any such scientific system of measurement in our lifetimes, so we're just going to have to hold off on issuing citations.
That is also because the customer doesn´t ask for it and nobody learns the customer what to ask for.
I can think of three curves that could be usefull, impedance, frequency (pp-ff) and directivity.
With the impedance curve you could see if there are any notes that don´t resonate properly or if there are leaks in the instrument. There should never again be a tuba sold without an impedance curve, stop selling lemons.
The directivity shows how broad the sound or how much the tuba projects the sound in one direction.
Frequency curves gives an indication of the color of the sound. How much harmonics and which one´s. pp and ff to see how the tuba changes sound between the two.
The latest two will need a learning curve to see how the difference of the curve relates to how the players percieve the differences. It could provide useful info to quantify the sound better then all the words we use now which means something different for everbody.
Or they don´t work and we need to look for other curves.
Research on flutes shows that the player dominates in how the flute sounds.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rsion_2020
If the customer isn't smart enough to ask or understand what the difference between a 4/4 and a 6/4 tuba is, they sure as heck won't be asking a music shop about which horn has the best impedance curve or frequency curve. (Unless it's one of us, but I'm talking School kids or parents interested in buying a new horn).
It´s a learning process, if the music teachers know it´s use they can easly explain it to the children. It isn´t harder then reading music.
The impedance curve could be used as a quality mark.
How many people understand the technical specs from cars or hifi equipment? Shouldn´t everybody known when buying a secondhand car to check the compression, all you need to known is one number and it needs to be the same for every cylinder.