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= Means I am out of luck right? Suck it up and learn the CC or stay with a smaller B flat?

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:12 pm = Means I am out of luck right? Suck it up and learn the CC or stay with a smaller B flat?

I don't know about that, but a 187 is close to unicorn territory. Since you don't like the look of a 1291/191 or 496 (which is one heckuva BBb), to keep with that aesthetic profile, you might start investigating a Cerveny BBb, Alex 163 BBb, MW 25. Or bloke's 190 (if he sells it). An Alex 164, Fafner, or similar horns might be larger than you want and, aside from the occasional good deal, often cost a premium.

BBb tangent:
I don't know how you feel about Eastman (or their place of origin), but the ONLY reason I sold the 562 I had was to acquire the 496. It does have a taller upper bow (GR 55), but... Talk about a solid BBb! The 562 is not small/not huge, but it makes more sound than a 186 or 187, it makes a great sound, and it plays super easy with good intonation. Great low range and singing high range. Pretty decent case, too. And the price was right. I have some videos of me playing it if that is of any interest to you. If not, I''ll save shameless self-promotion for my own thread.

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:44 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:12 pm = Means I am out of luck right? Suck it up and learn the CC or stay with a smaller B flat?

I don't know about that, but a 187 is close to unicorn territory. Since you don't like the look of a 1291/191 or 496 (which is one heckuva BBb), to keep with that aesthetic profile, you might start investigating a Cerveny BBb, Alex 163 BBb, MW 25. Or bloke's 190 (if he sells it). An Alex 164, Fafner, or similar horns might be larger than you want and, aside from the occasional good deal, often cost a premium.

BBb tangent:
I don't know how you feel about Eastman (or their place of origin), but the ONLY reason I sold the 562 I had was to acquire the 496. It does have a taller upper bow (GR 55), but... Talk about a solid BBb! The 562 is not small/not huge, but it makes more sound than a 186 or 187, it makes a great sound, and it plays super easy with good intonation. Great low range and singing high range. Pretty decent case, too. And the price was right. I have some videos of me playing it if that is of any interest to you. If not, I''ll save shameless self-promotion for my own thread.

Which Cerveny BBb are you referencing?

I would love to try a 562, not the best looking but I'll take your word on it.

The GR-51 and GR-55 are solid tubas. The Miraphone 191 is another solid option, but I know that the top bow On that one gets pretty close to the bell. So maybe that's out because of that.

If you're not risk averse, in the sense of international shipping, check out Uwe Schneider's website for some additional options. He's in Germany, so rotary BBb tubas are plentiful there. I think several people here have bought from him before, I can share their experiences.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:00 pm The GR-51 and GR-55 are solid tubas. The Miraphone 191 is another solid option, but I know that the top bow On that one gets pretty close to the bell. So maybe that's out because of that.

If you're not risk averse, in the sense of international shipping, check out Uwe Schneider's website for some additional options. He's in Germany, so rotary BBb tubas are plentiful there. I think several people here have bought from him before, I can share their experiences.

Yes, I could always buy me a 6/4 St. Pete... But yes, I bought an older Amati once from him. Customs dropped it on the bow so hard it was almost completely flat..

I didn't read it all but it sounds like you made a decision already. I'm 72 and started learning brasses at 45. Play all four keys of tubas....it takes about three months for me to get the fingerings down, but I read by pitch and not by fingering, so it's a different brain path process. ("That pitch on the page is *here* on this instrument.") However, I will say that I never, ever, became as proficient at playing fast on any brass, even horn that I've now played for 25 years, as I was on violin that I learned as a kid and was pro on. So I'm guessing that if you decided to stay with BBb for that reason, it is the right decision. Yeah you could do it but the likelihood of its being at the same technical level in any reasonable time frame is slim.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:05 pm I didn't read it all but it sounds like you made a decision already. I'm 72 and started learning brasses at 45. Play all four keys of tubas....it takes about three months for me to get the fingerings down, but I read by pitch and not by fingering, so it's a different brain path process. ("That pitch on the page is *here* on this instrument.") However, I will say that I never, ever, became as proficient at playing fast on any brass, even horn that I've now played for 25 years, as I was on violin that I learned as a kid and was pro on. So I'm guessing that if you decided to stay with BBb for that reason, it is the right decision. Yeah you could do it but the likelihood of its being at the same technical level in any reasonable time frame is slim.

I think if I were to do this, the key would not be (like you say) play off the fingerings or let your brain get muddled too much and "pitch it" instead. I understand, and it makes sense. I wish I had a $1000 CC horn I could practice on before I were to plunge deep into an expensive one.

Get busy living or get busy dying.

1. It’s not “throwing a switch.” It’s learning a new instrument, from scratch, but without being slowed down by an untrained embouchure. Method books, scales, writing in the occasional fingering…just the way you learned Bb but faster. I learned F in my 30’s, and as long as I practice it I have similar facility on both tubas. It took a solid year, but I’m an untalented moron who doesn’t practice enough.

2. A used 188 will be worth as much a year from now as it is now, so it can be a low- or no-cost experiment if it fails, assuming you buy sensibly.

3. A new fingering pattern about which you are motivated and excited could get you in the practice room more readily and more happily. That’s why we do this, right?

4. But there’s nothing I play that would make one any easier or better than the other, with maybe a few specific exceptions—that go both ways.

5. Nobody, even tuba players, will know whether the contrabass tuba in your lap is a C or a Bb, unless they are familiar with the particular model. And only tuba players will be familiar with typical models. But they will all hear what comes out of the bell.

6. The instrument you dreamed about might not be the instrument that dreamed about you.

Rick “don’t overthink it” Denney

I got no wisdom to offer, i just wanna say i love the subject line, as i always expect a Mr. Scratch, or Mr. Nick to be at the crossroads offering ya that 188. It might be a good idea to get Daniel Webster on retainer before proceeding...


I can say i'm almost adequate on multiple keys (BBb and Eb) and while i make mistakes, it isn't much more frequent than i make mistakes anyway.

Likewise, i think what Doc says is key with most any tuba. Just you and it, and find out what it sounds like without the added complications of learning music or playing with anyone else. Playing with others should be part of evaluating things at some level, but solve simple stuff first.

Anyway, best of luck whichever way ya go!

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:54 pm Which Cerveny BBb are you referencing?

Cerveny 691 or 693. They are bigger than the 686 (4/4), but not as big as the 6/4 696, 793, or 601. The 691 has more of “the look” you seek.

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:29 pm 1. It’s not “throwing a switch.” It’s learning a new instrument, from scratch

I don't believe (after encountering quite a few people over the last 65 years) that all brains/minds work the same way.
Your "not" may (or may "not"...??) be true, depending on the brain/mind.

Those who pick up languages effortlessly (*perhaps) are those who can move about (with very short learning curves, etc.) between various lengths/types of musical instruments.


______________________________
* "perhaps", because [1] not everyone who picks up several spoken languages is also an instrumentalist, and
[2] this really can't be known.

The thing about playing an instrument -- any kind -- is that you know what it's supposed to sound like. So when you pick up a different tuba, and different fingerings, sure it's frustrating as heck to mess things up... Because you know what it's supposed to sound like... But it's also NO mystery if you get things right or not.

It's like cooking. You'll know if it tastes good or tastes like shiit. Other people will too. That doesn't make it easier to cook. But it makes it easy to know when you've done something right. only bad thing with tubas is, when you get it all right, all the time... Nobody gives a shiit, because that's what it's supposed to sound like. Because he's, they know what it's supposed to sound like.

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:54 pm I would love to try a 562, not the best looking but I'll take your word on it.

562 Unboxing/Testing

Beer Barrel Polka

Sensucht und Liebe

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:21 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:54 pm I would love to try a 562, not the best looking but I'll take your word on it.

562 Unboxing/Testing

Beer Barrel Polka

Sensucht und Liebe

You make it sound pretty good in those live recordings. But, that's you as a player that is probably the biggest influence in that sound.

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:34 pm

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:05 pm I didn't read it all but it sounds like you made a decision already. I'm 72 and started learning brasses at 45. Play all four keys of tubas....it takes about three months for me to get the fingerings down, but I read by pitch and not by fingering, so it's a different brain path process. ("That pitch on the page is *here* on this instrument.") However, I will say that I never, ever, became as proficient at playing fast on any brass, even horn that I've now played for 25 years, as I was on violin that I learned as a kid and was pro on. So I'm guessing that if you decided to stay with BBb for that reason, it is the right decision. Yeah you could do it but the likelihood of its being at the same technical level in any reasonable time frame is slim.

I think if I were to do this, the key would not be (like you say) play off the fingerings or let your brain get muddled too much and "pitch it" instead. I understand, and it makes sense. I wish I had a $1000 CC horn I could practice on before I were to plunge deep into an expensive one.

There is that Conn 4J at the Brass Ark. Last time I checked, it was down to $1200.

York-aholic wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:51 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:34 pm

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:05 pm I didn't read it all but it sounds like you made a decision already. I'm 72 and started learning brasses at 45. Play all four keys of tubas....it takes about three months for me to get the fingerings down, but I read by pitch and not by fingering, so it's a different brain path process. ("That pitch on the page is *here* on this instrument.") However, I will say that I never, ever, became as proficient at playing fast on any brass, even horn that I've now played for 25 years, as I was on violin that I learned as a kid and was pro on. So I'm guessing that if you decided to stay with BBb for that reason, it is the right decision. Yeah you could do it but the likelihood of its being at the same technical level in any reasonable time frame is slim.

I think if I were to do this, the key would not be (like you say) play off the fingerings or let your brain get muddled too much and "pitch it" instead. I understand, and it makes sense. I wish I had a $1000 CC horn I could practice on before I were to plunge deep into an expensive one.

There is that Conn 4J at the Brass Ark. Last time I checked, it was down to $1200.

I scoured their website and didn't see anything. Not really interested in that configuration anyhow. But, not a bad price if you don't expect to resell it any time soon.

I think it must have sold then, as the Miraphone 180 F is still there. Sorry.

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/msg/d/sa ... 07711.html

This might be fun...?

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:47 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:54 pm Which Cerveny BBb are you referencing?

Cerveny 691 or 693. They are bigger than the 686 (4/4), but not as big as the 6/4 696, 793, or 601. The 691 has more of “the look” you seek.

I bought a Cerveny CBB 686-4B last february. Great sound, great horn!