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Doc wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:21 am quite rare (as is the Gronitz 4+1 Eb, which is another nice Eb to consider).

The new rotary valve model, or the old PE56 piston? I used to ogle pictures of that PE56 ... until I saw one in person in a repair shop, and saw how small it is. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I think the reviews were pretty positive for the small Willson Eb, too.

I was referring to the piston model (yes, it’s not an oversized beast, but a nice tuba). But the rotary version doesn’t seem to be in abundance either.

I have always been a fan of the 3400. I haven’t yet tried the smaller Willson, but I hope I can.

Doc wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:21 am My stand mate in one of my bands just purchased a used BMB 4+1 Eb in pristine condition. I had a chance to play it, and it was a VERY nice instrument that made a highly attractive sound. Maybe a 16.5" bell? I liked it plenty. Maybe he'll let me review it soon. I was very surprised how well it played and felt. If you see one, you should consider it as a possibility. Unfortunately, the BMB Eb is quite rare (as is the Gronitz 4+1 Eb, which is another nice Eb to consider).

Love this horn! Boy does it play and the bottom is insane. It plays with such a great sound and the tuning is fantastic. Very little slide pulling while playing.


Next to my CC Cerveny Piggy


I need one of these hand bell pillows.

I think those compact Willson instruments are really not smaller, but just tighter-wrapped.
With their bells closer to their players ears, they seem to be more dynamic instruments – an illusion of more “feedback”, etc.

I finally was able to play the larger of the two Miraphone rotary models offered today - the NS, and was pretty impressed with it. Them ain’t cheap.

I don’t see myself ever moving away from 3+1 compensating, when it comes to E-flat. James Gourlay is probably the emperor of E-flat playing. My daughter finally got to hear him play, because he and my son-in-law played an Easter gig together. She was as impressed as am I - with his playing. A really nice 3+1 seems to be good enough for him. They are quite comfortable to hold and play, but not for those who insist on trying to hold them the same way one would hold a front-action tuba.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:32 pm ...
I finally was able to play the larger of the two Miraphone rotary models offered today - the NS, and was pretty impressed with it. Them ain’t cheap.

....

The two Miraphone rotary models really are insanely good. The smaller one reminds me of the very best 184 CC you could imagine but pitched in E flat.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:32 pm ...
I don’t see myself ever moving away from 3+1 compensating, when it comes to E-flat. James Gourlay is probably the emperor of E-flat playing. My daughter finally got to hear him play, because he and my son-in-law played an Easter gig together. She was as impressed as am I - with his playing. A really nice 3+1 seems to be good enough for him. They are quite comfortable to hold and play, but not for those who insist on trying to hold them the same way one would hold a front-action tuba.

....

One objection some folks mention to 3+1 seems to include "the bell faces the wrong way". I've never found this to be an issue in reality. Is this really an issue in practice for anyone?

cjk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:05 am

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:32 pm ...
I don’t see myself ever moving away from 3+1 compensating, when it comes to E-flat. James Gourlay is probably the emperor of E-flat playing. My daughter finally got to hear him play, because he and my son-in-law played an Easter gig together. She was as impressed as am I - with his playing. A really nice 3+1 seems to be good enough for him. They are quite comfortable to hold and play, but not for those who insist on trying to hold them the same way one would hold a front-action tuba.

....

One objection some folks mention to 3+1 seem to include "the bell faces the wrong way". I've never found this to be an issue in reality. Is this really an issue in practice for anyone?

If someone doesn’t dig the 3+1 setup, that is likely just resistance to change/something different. Especially if you don’t hold it correctly (you do NOT hold it the same as a front action) . But people being people, this nonsense can be expected.

BUT this business about the bell pointing the wrong way is much ado about nothing. Triple nonsense. Arbitrary. Subjective. On the verge of dumbassery.

I owned a YEB-321 4-valve upright and it was ok, but the ability to work the slides while playing was non-existent from what I recall. A 3+1 implies a compensating horn, which I don't care to play if I can avoid it. A 4+1 valve front setup affords ME the opportunity to work in a more familiar fashion when it comes to playing the horn, but I'd buy a 321 again if the right deal came along at the right time (and then I'd have some triggers installed).

to each his own...

Being "digitally familiar" with 51234, 56/1234, and [4C]/123 (but not 123[4C], as I just don't have a good use for a 983 - though I understand that some non-F tuba players like 'em), I'm ready to play most any tuba, if its a REALLY good tuba (and - these days, after having sorted through models for several decades - it's becoming really difficult to find stuff better than stuff that I have)...so (particularly after having finally picked up a unicorn), about all I do is to shop for stuff to flip, and really don't shop for stuff for myself.

That having been said, ONLY considering front-action E-flat tubas is quite limiting, and (in my view) auto-eliminates some of the very best E-flat tubas...just as does ONLY considering front-action euphoniums (as the offered front-action models of either of those tend to be the parenthetical ones).

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:52 am BUT this business about the bell pointing the wrong way is much ado about nothing. Triple nonsense. Arbitrary. Subjective. On the verge of dumbassery.

Not necessarily. When I started bringing the French tuba into my orchestra, the 'bones didn't object to the timbre or blend, but more that they were hearing me more directly than with the usual left-pointing instrument. That's a real consideration.

They just weren’t used to taking that Sh!t from you that you were used to taking from them - with them relentlessly blasting their crap in your ear.

Me – being an incredibly slow learner – I finally learned to place my chair further back than the trombone chairs, particularly since I sit on the front of my chair when I play.

Gene finally figured out that it’s best for him to sit by himself behind the trombones.

Recently, a music director (as I tend to float around through three or four orchestras) asked me to sit in the empty horn chair, since there are not four horns playing the Mendelssohn Midsummernight’s Dream overture (and no trombones). I really wanted to ask if I could sit there, but never raise my hand in rehearsals, as we all know not to not do that ever…but he actually suggested it, so I was delighted.

It’s certainly easier to hear more of the things that are happening in the orchestra from that perch, with the disadvantage being that one isn’t right there with the basses - but since exposed to the fronts of the basses at that position I described, they are still quite audible.

Moreover, it got me thinking about how unsuitable it might actually be to be sitting with the trombones all the time, even though they tend to be our lunch break buddies.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:40 pm They just weren’t used to taking that Sh!t from you that you were used to taking from them - with them relentlessly blasting their crap in your ear.

Nooo, I figured out that "sitting behind their bells" thing decades ago. Definitely preferable.

The only people I have run into that care about the direction my tuba bell faces are other tuba players And I have done the orchestra thing on more than a few occasions

When I go sit in with a friendly-to-me community band, both of the regulars are 3+1 comp. players...so I can slip in a little bit late, sit down next to either one of them, and look on to their music without getting in their way...

...well...except that guy who does that tablet-scans/foot-pedal crap. That $h!t's too hard to see.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:19 pm

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:52 am BUT this business about the bell pointing the wrong way is much ado about nothing. Triple nonsense. Arbitrary. Subjective. On the verge of dumbassery.

Not necessarily. When I started bringing the French tuba into my orchestra, the 'bones didn't object to the timbre or blend, but more that they were hearing me more directly than with the usual left-pointing instrument. That's a real consideration.

For clarification, I was referring the tuba player's opinion (often based on unfounded personal biases, since very few tubists actually sit next to trombones in an orchestra; similar to how certain tubas won't get played in certain places because it doesn't have "the look"), but I can understand that careful bell angle and seat placement might be a courtesy to others, especially if you have to work with those folks every day.

And I agree that sitting behind the trombones bells is a VERY wise choice.

Bort, if you think the Martin might be worth doing a 'Frankentuba' job on - putting a larger valve set on in the process - you might contact Carl Kleinsteuber in Denton, TX. He's done just that and sounds fabulous on his 'Franken-eeefer'. I also know a tuba player/instrument repair guy, here in Santa Cruz County, who has also made himself a big 'Franken-eefer' and is really happy with it. I've yet to see it.

Just speaking for myself, I HATED the large Willson and did not like MW 2141. I just can't play those big MW piston sets. The Willson, for me, was a complete ergonomic horror show. As you know, I traded it for a 983. I like the 983, but those long pistons get tiring on the hand and shoulder after a few hours of playing.

As for 3+1, I'm only really familiar with the older Bessons. If you could find one cheap - not likely - 5K might possibly get you one of those Mike Johnson conversions. He takes the 4th valve piston off, puts in a rotor and makes the 4th valve wrap more open. I think he then puts a 4th valve trigger up by the valve block for your right thumb to use, but I might have that part wrong. He may he set the trigger somewhere for your left thumb someplace. He also has a number of different lead-pipe options too. Anyway, his conversions are supposed to pretty darn good.

Here's a good shot of Carl's eefer:

I'm familiar with the Johnson conversion.
He's a huge talent, and deserving of much respect...
...but I've never had an issue with the compensating range (with the better 3+1 compensating B-flat/E-flat tubas), as long as the valves were not worn. Some of the cheaper Chinese-made ones have featured epic piston misalignment, and with valve stems too short to remedy the issue.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:02 am I'm familiar with the Johnson conversion.
He's a huge talent, and deserving of much respect...
...but I've never had an issue with the compensating range (with the better 3+1 compensating B-flat/E-flat tubas), as long as the valves were not worn. Some of the cheaper Chinese-made ones have featured epic piston misalignment, and with valve stems too short to remedy the issue.

I'm assuming the Johnson conversion is what Richard Fox sports on his Boosey Imperial? When I first saw it, I thought it must have been done to solve some issue, possibly improve response, although I've never asked Richard about it. But it's interesting enough that I'd like to know more about it. If it can make a good tuba play better and really good tuba play even better, methinks this something to consider:



Doc (who, btw, is happy with his Eb AS-IS)