Geib mouthpiece on a Martin Eb?

[2nd tenor]

off on a tangent as usual; what is a "Geib style mouthpiece" that makes it "Geib?" What's different about it?

An extra response, which I hope is of additional help.

The Geib model has the same inside diameter as the Helleberg SH-II with a modified rim contour. The Geib cup is more bowl-shaped and slightly shallower than the SH-II. The entrance to the throat is tighter yet it shares the same throat size as the SH-II with a standard backbore.

https://www.schilkemusic.com/products/mouthpieces/tuba/

If the OP likes the size then that’s that, it suits them. The Eb Tubas that I’ve played haven’t really shown me particular practical benefit from using large cups and I switch about just either side of a Wick 3 (31.25 mm) on a four valve instrument. Played out on a Wick 2 today but using a Bach 25 helped me get my first top F. In contrast the bigger cup has helped me develop better tone and low range, but it’s all marginal gains rather that clearly different.

I think that the deeper and bowl like cups help with tone but hinder flexibly - it’s all a trade-off.

The Wick range are what they are and mostly that’s pretty good, and they do small shank versions of their standard range.


The JK 8C mentioned by MA above isn’t very large at all (30.5mm) but it still does the job and does it for a Tuba with more than three valves.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/jk_exclusive_ ... _8c.htmThe

[bort2.0]

Appreciate the extra info!

FWIW, the Schilke Geib is the least Geib-like "Geib" out there.

I have this longstanding idea of an in-depth research project about Geib mouthpieces. I've previously owned THE original Geib mouthpiece, but sold it before doing much formal studying or measuring of it. I doubt I'll ever see or hold that again...

... but I do still think about this project, and may very well still do it.

[Mary Ann]

2nd Tenor said:
The JK 8C mentioned by MA above isn’t very large at all (30.5mm) but it still does the job and does it for a Tuba with more than three valves.
-----
Nope, not very wide, but with something like my 7B you can't even see my corners. I need a narrower cup to fit my face, and the depth to make it sound like a tuba. You big guys should try playing with a cup that is so wide that you can't see your corners.

[cjk]

off on a tangent as usual; what is a "Geib style mouthpiece" that makes it "Geib?" What's different about it?

Very roughly ... It's sort of a pear shape, not quite bowl or funnel. Pretty deep, and a very thin and sharp rim. Around 32.7 mm diameter I think. Typically a small backbore, which is a bit old-school and pre-" everything should be bigger" when the CSO guys started drilling out their backbores.

I like the rim more than any other, and all around it works great for me on rotary tubas of all sizes and generally on any large tuba. So, I'm curious how it would work on a smaller instrument.

Perhaps that's the question more than my specific case... Would a Geib mouthpiece work well on a small tuba?

very thin rim: yes
very sharp rim: no
the originals are around 33mm ID
small throat, around 8mm.
cup is indeed pear shaped and deep, but not ridiculously so.

FWIW, the Laskey "G" series don't resemble any actual Geib mouthpieces I have owned. The Laskey G series seem to be bowled out versions of the of the Laskey H series.

[bort2.0]

Thanks!

Ok, so not very sharp, I guess I'm thinking that it ain't a 24AW rim.

I think I'm going to need to do this Geib project after all.

[cjk]

I've seen folks use Stofer Geibs in F tubas, so I have no doubt such a thing will work in your eefer.

If I were in your spot, I'd get a British shank Sellmansberger Imperial with a rim of your choice (I like the 32.9mm #2) and a nylon cup extender. The extender makes it deeper, but you can remove it. He also has extra depth "Profundo" rims which add the same amount as the extender, but you can't remove the depth there. An American shank Imperial with a 32.9mm #2 Profundo rim is what I play on my Yamaha Eb. If you get rid of the small shank e flats, you can get a different shank if you wish to continue using the mouthpiece.

Yeah, the rims are stainless steel. I'd like to get Joe to make a run of Lexan 32.9mm #2 rims someday. I rather like those.

And full disclosure , I am a total Sellmansberger mouthpiece fanboy. They work superbly and all the parts are fun.

[bort2.0]

Thanks again!

I had a blokepiece way back... 10+ ago... It worked very well, but that dang stainless steel allergy... (aw jeez I can already hear Joe's reply... )

[bort2.0]

And because I haven't said it before, I'm not against the idea of replacing the receiver. However, the stock receiver is pretty small, and it's probably one of those sleeve over the lead pipe kind of things. So I'm not exactly sure if a new receiver would easily fit on it, or something like an AGR would even have enough space to be installed (don't they require a small amount of the end of the lead pipe to be trimmed first anyway to ensure a clean install)

[cjk]

And because I haven't said it before, I'm not against the idea of replacing the receiver. However, the stock receiver is pretty small, and it's probably one of those sleeve over the lead pipe kind of things. So I'm not exactly sure if a new receiver would easily fit on it, or something like an AGR would even have enough space to be installed (don't they require a small amount of the end of the lead pipe to be trimmed first anyway to ensure a clean install)

It’s pretty easy to figure out if the receiver is a separate part. There will be a bump. All you need is a flashlight and a tiny diameter stick/screwdriver/whatever.

[bloke]

I'm not against cheese, just fwiw.

[Yorkboy]

I find that on my vintage E flat monster(s) a vintage (1920s) Conn Helleberg BBb mouthpiece works the best. I’m entirely ignorant of mouthpiece specs and characteristics, so I’ll leave it up to those so equipped to draw conclusions.

[2nd tenor]

I hope that it’s OK to bump this thread. Because a lot of older Tubas here in the UK use small shank mouthpieces I’ve been following this thread with interest. The only supplier of new small shank mouthpieces that I know of is Denis Wick - and I’m happy with his products - but alternatives are always good to know about. An update from the OP, please, even if it’s ’I’ve made no further progress’, might be a help to some other folk at a later time.

[2nd tenor]

2nd Tenor said:
The JK 8C mentioned by MA above isn’t very large at all (30.5mm) but it still does the job and does it for a Tuba with more than three valves.
-----
Nope, not very wide, but with something like my 7B you can't even see my corners. I need a narrower cup to fit my face, and the depth to make it sound like a tuba. You big guys should try playing with a cup that is so wide that you can't see your corners.

Whilst I’m convinced that the right mouthpiece, for each player and for each individual model of instrument, does make a useful difference I’m also convinced that the (instruments’) need for large diameter cups is over stated. Yep, I’d accepted that bigger cups have helped me to produce a (marginally) fuller sound on my Sovereign (Eb). However, there’s more to mouthpiece performance than size alone so the smaller ones can work well too.

The more that I play the more that I think that the player, eventually, alters how an instrument responds and sounds. To my mind - though it’s certainly helpful to have more appropriate stuff - technique matters more than equipment and some expensive equipment has either little or no advantage over simpler and free stuff. YMMV and I claim no expertise beyond basic skills acquired over years of playing for pleasure, but I’ve found that whilst my instrument remains unchanged the more that I practice the better it sounds . Good selection and matching of equipment helps but, as they say, it’s what you do with what you’ve got that matters.

My small receiver three valve Besson Regent (Eb) can play nicely enough with a relatively small cup - Tubas can be surprisingly cup size tolerant - and a borrowed Doug Yeo Bass Trombone mouthpiece (just a 28.7 mm cup) actually allowed it to sing rather well - I was impressed and pleasantly surprised. IIRC a small shank receiver four valve compensating Besson Imperial (Eb) did just fine with a Wick 5 (30.0 mm cup); and a Bach 25 copy (30.6 mm cup) works quite nicely for me in my Sovereign (easier high range, more lip control, but marginally poorer speaking, for me, through the compensating 4+ pipe work). Obviously the JK 8C is within the size range that works well with an Eb Tuba , enjoy using it.

[cjk]

off on a tangent as usual; what is a "Geib style mouthpiece" that makes it "Geib?" What's different about it?

An extra response, which I hope is of additional help.

The Geib model has the same inside diameter as the Helleberg SH-II with a modified rim contour. The Geib cup is more bowl-shaped and slightly shallower than the SH-II. The entrance to the throat is tighter yet it shares the same throat size as the SH-II with a standard backbore.

https://www.schilkemusic.com/products/mouthpieces/tuba/

If the OP likes the size then that’s that, it suits them. The Eb Tubas that I’ve played haven’t really shown me particular practical benefit from using large cups and I switch about just either side of a Wick 3 (31.25 mm) on a four valve instrument. Played out on a Wick 2 today but using a Bach 25 helped me get my first top F. In contrast the bigger cup has helped me develop better tone and low range, but it’s all marginal gains rather that clearly different.

I think that the deeper and bowl like cups help with tone but hinder flexibly - it’s all a trade-off.

The Wick range are what they are and mostly that’s pretty good, and they do small shank versions of their standard range.


The JK 8C mentioned by MA above isn’t very large at all (30.5mm) but it still does the job and does it for a Tuba with more than three valves.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/jk_exclusive_ ... _8c.htmThe

To be really honest, Schilke's "Geib" mouthpieces have very little resemblance to actual Geib mouthpieces. The Schilke Geib (and Laskey 30G) are more like bowled out Helleberg IIs. They lack the narrow rim, pear shaped cup, and smaller throat which is typical of Fred Geib's mouthpieces.

[bort2.0]

To answer an earlier question from somewhere...

The Medium Eb does NOT have a receiver, it's just a sleeve over the leadpipe.

The Monster Eb (which is a few years older) *does* have a receiver, which seems a bit between the small shank and standard shank sizes. The small shank mouthpiece is too small, but a standard shank could stand to be seated a bit better.

For the medium... Without a receiver, and with not much clearance (that is, not a lot of pipe to work with), would an AGR even be possible to fit on there? How much clearance is needed?

I like the idea of the AGR not for the gap stuff (which I'm not good/sensitive enough to really perceive, at least not on the big tubas on which I've experienced it)... But for the flexibility of "both sizes of mouthpieces will work."