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imnotbrown wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:54 pm I'm experimenting a bit right now. I played on a PT-50 for years, but recently wanted something a bit smaller just because i was playing more solo style stuff. I swapped to a Laskey 28H, and shortly after that i got access to an F tuba that really diminished the need for solo stuff on my contrabass horn. I use a PT-64 with that. Been practicing a lot of excerpts lately, been testing them with both my 28H, my PT50, and a TU25. Thinking about maybe getting a 32H or possibly a bigger perantucci but overall I'm really not sure. I got time to figure it out.

That’s it, experimentation. Of course what we’re aiming at is a moving target - or something like that - as our perception(s) and ability(ies) change over time. To reduce complexity I tend to stick to comparisons within one manufacturer’s range of products, popular products must work reasonably well for someone and if it’s manufactured - or rather sold - in volume them the likelihood is that it’s a good enough product. Subject to time and finances we just home in on the better (for us) of the good.

At least to some noticeable extent the better I learn to play (good practise matters) the better the mouthpiece that I happen to have sounds; well provided, of course, it’s a reasonable match to me and the instrument. Experimentation is good, it can make a useful difference, but typically we don’t need the perfect ‘piece - however that’s judged - we just need something that’s ‘in the right ball park’ … and then got on with using it well.

I've been playing Blokepieces exclusively for a good while now, and all with the #2 rim profile except for one. I tried a #1 2pc style dark H-kote (?) with a 3pc Imperial cup/shank on the Boosey & Hawkes 15" Imperial, and it just seemed to work best. I don't know why, and I didn't ask any further questions. I've tried a #2 on it again, and I just don't like it as much.

The full lineup:

Hagen 496 BBb - Solo, #2 euro shank, extension ring, gold-kote Profundo #2 rim (a power mp; achieves a " kaiser" sound, especially
when you step on the gas)

Conn 20J BBb - Symphony cup/shank, #2 regular rim

Blokespecial 186 CC - Imperial cup/shank, gold-kote Profundo #2 rim

JP 377 EEb - Imperial cup/shank, #2 regular rim

B&H Imperial EEb - Imperial cup/shank, dark-kote 2pc-style #1 rim

Wessex EEb helicon - Imperial cup/shank, #2 regular rim

B&S Symphonie F - Solo cup, #0 shank, #2 regular rim

When I was in tooba skool, I used a PT-50 and (later) a Deck 3F ( ) on my PT-6 CC. I kept trying to do bigger bigger bigger, pushing myself (unwisely) on the audition circuit and practice room until my embouchure imploded and I began to display symptoms of focal dystonia. At that point I quit playing for a few years and changed career paths. Coming back to the horn in fits and starts, I've tried being more conservative in my approach to equipment -- at first, just using the generic Bach 18-type mouthpiece that came with my Miraclone CC, and later when I was feeling more confident and had my chops back, I started using the 32.6mm and 32.9mm rims on a Sellmansberger Symphony in my Eastman 832 4/4 CC. Whether it is being in a different psychological place now or the move to smaller equipment, I haven't had many of those symptoms pop back up.

I still have that PT-50 that I got back in college. I had the rim and inside cup plated gold, and left the outside of the cup silver. It's a very handsome mouthpiece.

I sold the Deck 3F for a song when I was downsizing/purging after I quit playing. I applaud those that can get useful results on such a thing.
The specs on that mouthpiece are a 33.5mm rim diameter with a flat rim, large deep bowl, and a 9.52mm backbore.

I was chatting with a retired symphony player and we were discussing getting old and dealing with issues like tremor.

He suggested something I'd never thought I'd hear: A Bach 24AW. The very mouthpiece I played for six years in school, but that I came to truly despise. Given the general lack of regard for that mouthpiece among just about everybody who does not live in the UK, I'm sorta surprised that it even occurred to him to try it.

I'm not psychologically ready to go that way, but it goes to show that any trend in mouthpiece popularity probably falls more to fad than fact. Any mouthpiece might be just the right mouthpiece for a give player and instrument.

Rick "doubting the 24AW is even still findable in the pile o'stuff" Denney

There's a Belmonte 24AW in the shop.
I use it to test busted tubas after they're fixed.
If the low range works with that thing, I probably plugged all the leaks and lined up the valves good enough.

Just as with my $15 dial calipers (which I toss in the trash and replace, after too many mishaps), it falls off the bench onto the floor a lot.

================================

I remember a few short decades ago when Hugh Cooper (et al) were finally doing something about the problems of dealing with A=438 flute tone hole spacing (the long-time teaching method of tilting the head angle (in relation to the embouchure hole) up-and-down to compensate for that, along with shortened headjoints) by moving all the tone holes inward to A=440/442 spacing, lengthening the headjoints very slightly, and also fashioning the embouchure holes more like venturis - rather than tops of beer bottles.

Some "old school" flute players were complaining that young players wouldn't learn how to play the flute well enough, because the new flutes were "too easy" to play.

=================================

The solution to the 24AW is the 22.
- The 22 rim isn't way too wide (ie. does not pin the embouchure down - as pinning it down restricts flexibility)
- The 22 throat isn't too way large (as excessively large throats can result in control issues)

If they made a 24 or 24A (with a 22-sized throat) that might be a pretty good deep bowl mouthpiece for people who need the interior rim spacing to be even more narrow than 22 (though their numbers would imply the opposite).

still...

The solution to the 24AW is the 22.

https://www.bachbrass.com/application/f ... 89_web.pdf

arpthark wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 6:27 am When I was in tooba skool, I used a PT-50 and (later) a Deck 3F ( ) on my PT-6 CC. I kept trying to do bigger bigger bigger, pushing myself (unwisely) on the audition circuit and practice room until my embouchure imploded and I began to display symptoms of focal dystonia. At that point I quit playing for a few years and changed career paths. Coming back to the horn in fits and starts, I've tried being more conservative in my approach to equipment -- at first, just using the generic Bach 18-type mouthpiece that came with my Miraclone CC, and later when I was feeling more confident and had my chops back, I started using the 32.6mm and 32.9mm rims on a Sellmansberger Symphony in my Eastman 832 4/4 CC. Whether it is being in a different psychological place now or the move to smaller equipment, I haven't had many of those symptoms pop back up.

I still have that PT-50 that I got back in college. I had the rim and inside cup plated gold, and left the outside of the cup silver. It's a very handsome mouthpiece.

I sold the Deck 3F for a song when I was downsizing/purging after I quit playing. I applaud those that can get useful results on such a thing.
The specs on that mouthpiece are a 33.5mm rim diameter with a flat rim, large deep bowl, and a 9.52mm backbore.

Thanks for that, I think that for many people it’s really helpful to understand that constantly pushing the size up is going to end badly. The perceived wisdom on far too many things is that more or bigger - or some other extreme - is better, but in reality that’s actually not the case. That’s one bruising lesson in life to learn.

What’s better? That’s hard to define but as a rule of thumb pick simple and pick in balance with the other stuff that connects to it. In balance performs better.

He suggested something I'd never thought I'd hear: A Bach 24AW. The very mouthpiece I played for six years in school, but that I came to truly despise. Given the general lack of regard for that mouthpiece among just about everybody who does not live in the UK, I'm sorta surprised that it even occurred to him to try it.

The Bach 24AW might be liked here in the UK but in person I’ve not come across anyone using one. A Wick 3 works well in an EEb, it’s a popular size and I’ve driven a BBb with one too. If I were in the USA then I’d look for a Bach 22, or a copy / clone of one.

The rule of thumb that I’ve been taught is use the the biggest mouthpiece that you can manage and (ie. up to the following) the smallest that will do the job - the bit in brackets is important and is virtually always omitted. The smallest that can do the job varies between both people and instruments.

We all know tuba mouthpieces are expensive, the safari often centered around more recently acquired horns. Problem is, if you unload a bunch of currently unused pieces, with the next acquisition the cycle starts again. I went with the unload approach as I am not currently looking at getting any more or different tubas. After extensive (for me) safari, I settled on the Dillon Roylance TDCM for my PT-6P clone and my M188. It offers me the range, security and clarity I am most often looking for. I keep a older Dillon Roylance A (TDCL equivalent) in the car glove compartment as a backup. The Dillon pieces happen to be gold plated. I also enjoy a stainless G&W Diablo for quintet when I want, what I think of as, less color and more core. I'm pretty ambivalent about MP material and would just as soon play on silver plate as it seems to give a bit better traction than gold or stainless. Of course your mileage will vary!

Appreciate this thread. I don't have one of those entire dining room table sized tables devoted to mouth pieces as I've seen in some tuba players homes, but I think I'm getting four or five euphonium/ tuba mouthpieces around here that I don't need / use, and you guys are encouraging me to turn them into money and get them out of the sock drawer.

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 2:24 am The rule of thumb that I’ve been taught is use the the biggest mouthpiece that you can manage and (ie. up to the following) the smallest that will do the job - the bit in brackets is important and is virtually always omitted.

I can't say I entirely understood that - which bit is important? but the gist of it seems somewhat error prone to me.

Don't use the biggest mouthpiece you think you can manage, because you're probably kidding yourself. Don't worry about whether a mouthpiece is big enough to do the job - if it's a tuba mouthpiece and you've practiced adequately on it, it probably is. If you're playing to a really high level, you know you don't need any of this advice.

The way I understand it, our great grandparents' mouthpieces were generally smaller, and it wasn't because they were dwarfed or stupid. We play on 33½mm mouthpieces because we're stupid. Well, not really, but it's all too human to think bigger is better and you're going to get out there and kill it with a big bad mouthpiece. The original Hellebergs were more like 7B, maybe 28H size, am I right?

What's worse, the numerically minor differences we're talking about can be swamped by rim differences and differences in how the measurements are made, so playing the diameter game is intrinsically error prone. Those numbers aren't as real as they might seem.

Regarding FD: it got to the point where my lips would immediately start to quiver as soon as I put a metal mouthpiece on them. It would not get triggered by lexan or plastic, so for a while, when symptoms were really bad, I was playing on a Kelly plastic mouthpiece. Another thing that did not help was my trying to "muscle through it," thinking my embouchure was weak, and doing those embouchure-strengthening exercises where you keep that small pencil-shaped thing between your lips to build muscle or whatever. Dumb dumb dumb. That is what really made it worse and what made me basically put up the horn all together.

I don't really know if the larger mouthpiece had anything to do with it, but I am a small person, with a smaller sound, and I feel naturally more comfortable playing bass tuba than contrabass. Trying to get that big, world-class (heh) sound on my PT-6 was just not something I could physically do, be it because of oral cavity size or shape or whatever. Definitely a case of overexertion over a period of about 18 months that led to some really screwy things going on, physically.

Nowadays, I don't really think about any of that stuff anymore, and I don't really practice -- I just play the tuba, and I play a lot of tunes at home, and I improvise and goof around a lot, and I think I sound better than I have sounded since I was about 20 years old.

donn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:41 am

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 2:24 am The rule of thumb that I’ve been taught is use the the biggest mouthpiece that you can manage and (ie. up to the following) the smallest that will do the job - the bit in brackets is important and is virtually always omitted.

I can't say I entirely understood that - which bit is important? but the gist of it seems somewhat error prone to me.

Don't use the biggest mouthpiece you think you can manage, because you're probably kidding yourself. Don't worry about whether a mouthpiece is big enough to do the job - if it's a tuba mouthpiece and you've practiced adequately on it, it probably is. If you're playing to a really high level, you know you don't need any of this advice.

The way I understand it, our great grandparents' mouthpieces were generally smaller, and it wasn't because they were dwarfed or stupid. We play on 33½mm mouthpieces because we're stupid. Well, not really, but it's all too human to think bigger is better and you're going to get out there and kill it with a big bad mouthpiece. The original Hellebergs were more like 7B, maybe 28H size, am I right?

What's worse, the numerically minor differences we're talking about can be swamped by rim differences and differences in how the measurements are made, so playing the diameter game is intrinsically error prone. Those numbers aren't as real as they might seem.

Apologies if I’m not clear. The rule of thumb was passed on to me, it’s succinct but not necessarily easy to understand. I’m not sure whether I can make it clearer to you, but I’ll try.

# When we first started to play most of us found it very difficult to control our lips such that we were able to makes notes of the intended pitch and not to split notes. To make things a easier we played on small mouthpieces but the sound we made on our instruments was ‘thin’ and only improved in tonal quality or richness as we became able to use bigger mouthpieces on our instrument. (Hence ‘use the the biggest mouthpiece that you can manage’.) As we progressively strengthen our lips and used bigger mouthpieces the sound of our instruments progressively improves until it reaches a limit or point of very much diminishing further returns.

# If it is to sound its best then an instrument needs a certain quality of vibration input. Less than that quality is noticeable and more than that quality is barely discernible. The objective is to supply enough vibrations of good enough quality to get over that threshold. (Hence ‘the smallest that will do the job’.)

So as a beginner - and maybe later too - we progressively play a bigger mouthpiece until it’s big enough to provide the vibrations needed and then there’s no need to play anything bigger - next to no merit in it either. (Of course not everyone is able to manage big mouthpieces and some will manage larger sizes more easily than others; that’s life, work with what you’ve got and can manage to make it do.) I hope that that explanation helps.

I’d agree that earlier generations played smaller mouthpieces and sounded great using them, they also played smaller bore instruments and sometimes three rather than four valve instruments too and I think that that made a difference. I’d also agree that in general folk are drawn to use larger mouthpieces than they really need - and sometimes that’s also a size that they aren’t suited to support.

Thank you all for your wonderful replies.

I had not considered other mps in years because I really like the one I use. But one evening I forgot mine at home in a rush and had to borrow one. There was a drastic difference. That got me thinking and trying the others I have, and bought another to try.

So, on my favorite mp, it's the inside rim diameter that I really like. Its huge compared to all others I've played and that's comfortable on my embochure. I would like to have different cup shapes and depths with that rim diameter. But I have not seen any like it. It sounds like I need to seek a modular setup with the rim diameter I like. Now I know what I want, I just need to work on that.

Thank you so very much, everyone's input has been very helpful.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

arpthark wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:08 am Regarding FD: it got to the point where my lips would immediately start to quiver as soon as I put a metal mouthpiece on them. It would not get triggered by lexan or plastic, so for a while, when symptoms were really bad, I was playing on a Kelly plastic mouthpiece. Another thing that did not help was my trying to "muscle through it," thinking my embouchure was weak, and doing those embouchure-strengthening exercises where you keep that small pencil-shaped thing between your lips to build muscle or whatever. Dumb dumb dumb. That is what really made it worse and what made me basically put up the horn all together.

I don't really know if the larger mouthpiece had anything to do with it, but I am a small person, with a smaller sound, and I feel naturally more comfortable playing bass tuba than contrabass. Trying to get that big, world-class (heh) sound on my PT-6 was just not something I could physically do, be it because of oral cavity size or shape or whatever. Definitely a case of overexertion over a period of about 18 months that led to some really screwy things going on, physically.

Nowadays, I don't really think about any of that stuff anymore, and I don't really practice -- I just play the tuba, and I play a lot of tunes at home, and I improvise and goof around a lot, and I think I sound better than I have sounded since I was about 20 years old.

You have described very well how someone develops dystonia, and what's it's like to have it, which is one of the things I go on about here. Mine was from trying to play higher and higher over a long period of time without the proper instruction of how to do so (on horn, not tuba) --- trying to do something I didn't have the technique for, forcing my face into oblivion. Like you, I do best on a bass tuba on the higher parts, and I sound fine on those. Unfortunately if I have to actually practice those parts, the dystonia symptoms start creeping in even on tuba, because -- oops -- I am putting the exact same type of attention on my chops that developed dystonia to start with; and I have to back off. Because I was a natural low player on horn, I have not had to work at what low range I can do well on tuba, and don't have any symptoms there. I'm good down to a C or Bb, A or Ab if it's just oompah (because of the air requirement,) but know I am not a contrabass player and never will be. I let the big guys do that.

arpthark wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:08 am I don't really know if the larger mouthpiece had anything to do with it, but I am a small person, with a smaller sound, and I feel naturally more comfortable playing bass tuba than contrabass. Trying to get that big, world-class (heh) sound on my PT-6 was just not something I could physically do, be it because of oral cavity size or shape or whatever. Definitely a case of overexertion over a period of about 18 months that led to some really screwy things going on, physically.

Nowadays, I don't really think about any of that stuff anymore, and I don't really practice -- I just play the tuba, and I play a lot of tunes at home, and I improvise and goof around a lot, and I think I sound better than I have sounded since I was about 20 years old.

Over exertion does screw things up for the individual. Pushing boundaries and stretching yourself can be beneficial, but if you get it badly wrong (over exertion) then something breaks. As an observation some coaches (insert another tittle as appropriate) leave behind them a trail of destruction as they push people - cannon fodder - along too hard in pursuit of their own goals.

Play what works for you and enjoy it. It’s not a hard and fast rule but in general Tuba players, and particularly Contrabass players, are physically large people of some strength. Yep, some smaller people manage but bigger people manage much more easily.

I’m maybe biased but as far as I can see the Bass Tuba is not lesser than the Contrabass Tuba but rather just provides something slightly different. In terms of importance to a music group it all depends on what the group is seeking. The Principle Tuba (player) in a Brass Band plays a Bass (Eb) Tuba and when then music is different then the Eb part is almost always harder (difficult and significant) than the BBb (contrabass) part.

Practise. The most effective practise material that I have is tunes, some have more challenge than others but all provide opportunities to polish skills. Practise sessions should be a refreshing pleasure rather than a chore; of course improving skills is an important benefit of them too, but as an amateur I play for pleasure … and because it’s enjoyable more practise gets done.

For me on my CC tubas:

Bach 7

I have played a Bach 7 since the 1980's, it was the best match between me and my Alexander CC.
I played mostly in bands (concert, German, etc.), orchestras and Dixieland bands.

Before the Bach 7 I played a Bach 18 for around 10 years, the 7 worked better for me.

My opinion: find a mouthpiece that works for you and learn how to use it. Others have different opinions and that is fine.

best,
Mark

Mark E. Chachich wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:38 am Others have different opinions and that is fine.

not according to fb or youtube.