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Terrifically informative. My guess is that the cost of a well made fiber composite tuba would be on the same order as brass, and would be competitive in every way and of course much lighter. And of course wouldn't sell.

I think the "comes unglued" story was acknowledged - that Martin has come apart, too. The point is not that it doesn't happen, but that it doesn't need to happen.

I would have thought the complaint would be that they don't come unglued. What tuba doesn't eventually have to be pulled apart for some reason?

matt g wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:25 pm

The Big Ben wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:04 pm

LeMark wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:46 pm both have 4 valves, but if I had to, I could manage with a small three valve tuba like a yamaha 103 that had either a

Tom McGrady sells a 3/4 BBb roughly based on a Yamaha 103 plus a valve:
https://mackbrass.com/tu422l-3%2F4-bbb-tuba

I know his ad copy says YBB-103, but that horn has a tuning slide before the valve block. The Mack Brass horn is a copy of the YBB-621.

I've got this Mack 422 with the bigger 16" bell, and it works for what I do. Totally unremarkable, although it gets a decent sound. 4v pistons front. It's about 1/4 tone sharp the way I play it. I think if you're used to a BAT, this probably won't scratch that itch. After about a year, the valves and slides have mostly worn in so they work well enough. This is probably a 18 lb tuba.

A bass trombone is 8-10 lbs, but the tuba is actually more ergonomically friendly, as the bass bone will hurt you more than the tuba to be sure.

A tuba stand and a cart and maybe a van with a ramp might help out as well. I tried the weight loss thing, and it does help. Helps the breathing as much as anything.

I've always been a backpacker and bike rider, so I tend to go minimalist in my equipment choices. I wouldn't use Chinese stuff, but this is a secondary or terciary instrument for me. Tenor and bass bones for me are solid pro-lines. I don't use euph and tuba on real gigs.

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:30 pm ... After about a year, the valves and slides have mostly worn in so they work well enough. ...

This makes me sad. I mean, happy that it now works well enough for you, but sad that there are probably a lot of players, especially new ones, for whom it seems okay that a new tuba has crummy valves and slides.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:20 am If you spend more time with that particular tuba, you can figure out how to make it sound like a 186...if you choose to do so.

This is not a "Hey, I can" post, but an "I'm certain that you can" post.

Ah ha! Stick a C4 in it and I'm almost there.

There Josef Lidl LBB701-4 BBb at Lee Stofer’s website and I think it would be great for someone who is looking for something lighter. It has 400mm/15.7″ bell, 18.3mm/ .720″ bore. There’s also 702 model which CC version with 4 valves and it’s awesome. Only weighs 14 lbs. Easy to carry and play even by a 10 year old.

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tofu wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 7:36 pm

sugawi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:30 pm There Josef Lidl LBB701-4 BBb at Lee Stofer’s website and I think it would be great for someone who is looking for something lighter. It has 400mm/15.7″ bell, 18.3mm/ .720″ bore. There’s also 702 model which CC version with 4 valves and it’s awesome. Only weighs 14 lbs. Easy to carry and play even by a 10 year old.

Okay - I can speak to this first hand as I bought one from Lee back around 2015 after getting t-boned directly on the drivers side door at 75 mph by a meth head blowing through a red light.

The horn was very well made - fit and finish flawless. The valves were superb and superbly made. Good intonation and a nice full sound - bigger than you would honestly expect for a horn of this size. Easy to blow and incredibly easy to hold. It weighs 16 lbs and it’s an easy 16 pounds to hold. Excellent quintet horn and a nice section horn. Could hold down by itself perhaps an ensemble no greater than 25. Slide alignment is excellent. When I bought mine it came with a fitted Jacob Winter case. Excellent case and honestly in the case the horn can be carried easily and feels like a large euphonium.

Case has wheels and a nice rubber pull handle as well and works well on a smooth surface. That came in handy when we flew down to do a couple of performances in Texas at the TMEA 3 months after the accident and I was just off crutches and using a cane as well as a concert at Notre Dame. My only negative is projection. It just can't project to the back row in a decent sized hall. I don’t know what they go for now or if they still come with a Jacob Winter case, but back then I thought it was a steal for again back then what was a hand made horn. I sold it after I was fully back on my feet, but there are times I wish I still had it.

Lee sells these with a gig bag now, not the Jacob Winter case. I asked him about hard cases to fit and he said he would have to source the right size of MTS case. I’m actually not sure there is one. A shame he’s not doing the JW cases anymore.

It’s also too bad that they don’t make a piston version of this horn!

@Mary Ann

Since another thread mentioned the 3/4 Hagen going back. I was thinking the Lidl 701BBb might be perfect for you. Rotory valves and smaller vlave bore than the Hagen.

MAYBE a Meinl Weston 2011RA Gravity rotory tuba (still counts as a Hojo tuba? Or was that only the top action one...) too. But it's been years since I've briefly tooted on the Hojo models. And I don't remember how heavy they felt to hold either.

It's pretty cool that it comes in top and front piston and rotor form too. Although the rotary version features a larger valve bore compared to the piston versions. My guess is that technically, rotory valves of the same bore size and distance from the leadpipe has more resistance.

Although when I tooted on the rotary King pit tuba model 1280, it had a lot of resistance. But I need to take that horn in to get the valves attached to their arms... Etc. Plus, the pit tuba is a 3/4 tuba that is stretched out. Compared to say an 4/4 King 1241 or 4/4 old style 2341.

Hmm, well I haven't played the new 3/4 Jupiters, but they list the 1100 model with a bore of 0.661 in BBb JTU1140 and CC JTU1150. Both of have 4 rotary valves.


Although I did play a predecessor of sorts at the 2008 ITEC. The rotary valves was next to the bell though. Fun to play but not as good as say the Lidl, Miraphones, JP 379, MW 18. But Jupiter doesn't make that version anymore. And at least that model is probably more affordable in the used market compared to the other tubas I just listed. But again, I have no idea how the new Jupiters are. They look like they should better though.

Edit: Technically Eastmon has some neat stuff too. And the now Besson used to be Meinl Weston 186 thing too. I'll just leave what I posted though. I'm sure we can list a ton 3/4 to light 4/4 4 valve tubas, but probably have its own dedicated thread.

The only plastic tuba I've been around was that Cool Wind BBb that Mark Nelson played in a recital a few years ago. It sounded like a tuba, but the clicking of the valves was almost louder than the tuba. No way I would have considered one of those because of that.

jtm wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:28 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:20 am If you spend more time with that particular tuba, you can figure out how to make it sound like a 186...if you choose to do so.

This is not a "Hey, I can" post, but an "I'm certain that you can" post.

Ah ha! Stick a C4 in it and I'm almost there.

Tonight I tried a Blokepiece Symphony, and ... I like it more than I expected to. Makes the very low end solid yet also light and bouncy. It's easy to get a nice edge on the tone, too. For playing low parts on this fairly light and easy to handle tuba, it might be just the thing.

//Sometimes being German comes in handy: plastic (the noun) is written "Plastik" (with a capital "P") and is a colloquial expression for "Kunststoff", which both serve as generic terms for industrially processed material that is neither metallic, ceramic, biological nor mineral in nature.
Plastic (the adjective) would be "plastisch" and easily distinguishable to the noun, both in pronunciation and spelling.
(Is "plastical" a word in English?)
//End off-topic, hardly useful information.

Back on topic:
I haven´t had a chance to try the Lidl instruments, but they certainly seem intreaguing.
I have found MW 2011 (no matter the valve version) to be "bigger inside than outside" and VERY effective in small groups as well as tuba sections. Currently, a 2011 FA is serving me well as a back-saving marching horn in community band.

Old brass instruments have a higher chance to be hand-made from (thin) sheet metal, therefore being lighter than those made of bent and hydraulically inflated pipes. My last successful chance to confirm this theory was that MW200 I checked out recently.

Those who like to set their horns on the bell to the side of their seat might want to look for a lightweight, but tall tuba design rather than a compact one: Center of gravity is MUCH higher and doesn´t need to be lifted as high, if at all, to allow for the horn to be just rolled over your thigh into your lap rather than lifted and flipped in mid-air: Less strain on shoulder and arm joints/muscles.
- Which certainly supports the initially stated idea of an OLD Cerveny 681

I do a job where I walk about 10 miles a day and move 75,000lbs worth of weight by hand in a timely manner. Now at 34 I sometimes feel like I’m at the end of this sort of labor BUT THEN!!!!

I do the exercises a physical therapist prescribed me and magically that pain in my lower back, mid back, knees, feet and traps become much more tolerable or even non-existent.

If you don’t want to go to a PT expert there are also resources online (Stuart McGill Back or Stuart McGill big 3 exercises.)

I can’t count the number of times I thought “how much longer can I do this job” and then actually exercising/ stretching those muscles to correct my imbalances and that question leaves me.

Too often I think we get this idea in our heads that our bodies are worn out and we are helpless to this “destiny”.

I would say if you are between the ages of 60-75 and can not competently move 25lbs worth of weight, then there is an underlying cause that requires more attention then lightening the weight of your tuba.

I only say this because my father who was a gymnast/ iron worker/ alcoholic treated his body with much less care and grace and is still doing automotive body work (WITH NO FRICKEN LIFT!!!) at 75.

EDIT: I also listen to my body and sometimes a nerve in my back does get irritated and needs a break. I’ve found a standing tuba stand to remedy this issue. No conductor has ever given me crap when asked about this ahead of time.

I'm not quite there yet either, but aches and pains do increase each year. Still enjoying the heck out of my Rudy 5/4 CC. I switch off with my '60's era Mirafone 186 Bb, which I've had since 1976. To me it is the perfect balance of weight/volume/tone/and playability.

My Amati is the lightest serviceable tuba I own - lighter than my 184 and probably 1/2 to 2/3 the weight (just a guess) of my Chinese 186 clone. The lightest (pretty out of tune) tuba I have is the early Egid Glassl.

Maybe if someone orders an Alexander 4/4 CC with 4 valves? I would assume the BBb doesn't way too much more than the CC either.

Horn Guys lists the 5 valve Alexander CC weighing at 20.5 lb.

The B&S gr-41 5 valve CC on sale on the same site for example is 23.8 lb.

The 4 valve Miraphone 186 BBb is 21.5 Ib

A 3/4 Miraphone 494 BBb Hagen 4 valve is 19.8 lb

So having a lack of a 5th valve might help save a few pounds while also having 4/4 tuba. For those who really want to hold on something bigger than a 3/4 CC or BBb.

I just finished playing a Meinl Weston 2011RA 3/4 BBb last week. As far as I can tell, it is the first one in the U.S. Certainly the first one available for public testing. It makes a big sound, easy response, and very nice intonation. Mark said he thought it was a bit stuffy, but I absolutely loved it. I’ve been wanting to try one since they came out, and it exceeded all my expectations. I could see using it instead of F tuba on all my Oktoberfest and blasmusik gigs (when F tuba is not mandatory), especially when miked. Now I need to try a Hagen 494 3/4 BBb for comparison.

I blew through one of those original M-W Howard Johnson tubas a long time ago - before they started making the variations with front action and rotary and all that stuff. It blew small, but it was okay. I actually have a genuine four valve Mahillon here, which blows even smaller - because the bore size of the real ones is only 5/8 of an inch. As I've said before, if someone sets down and euphonium and tries to play a valve trombone with the same blow, it's probably not going to work very well.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:18 am I blew through one of those original M-W Howard Johnson tubas a long time ago - before they started making the variations with front action and rotary and all that stuff. It blew small, but it was okay. I actually have a genuine four valve Mahillon here, which blows even smaller - because the bore size of the real ones is only 5/8 of an inch. As I've said before, if someone sets down and euphonium and tries to play a valve trombone with the same blow, it's probably not going to work very well.

I wasn’t expecting it to play like big tuba. I didn’t really know what to expect, but (as with F tuba) I tried to feed it what it wanted. I thought it was very responsive and easy to play. I’d like to do a comparison between it, a Miraphone 494, and a Miraphone 282. I already have a high opinion of the 282. If/when my work situation changes, and I can get back to playing more gigs, a top shelf 3/4 BBb could certainly fit a niche for me.

We all have preferences, proclivities, tendencies, etc., and I completely understand some instruments resonate with some, but do not resonate with others. I mentioned @LeMark earlier - he and I share many similar opinions on many instruments, but occasionally we have different experiences. The Wessex Tubby Eb is another example that comes to mind. I also prefer less resistance than others. I like a more open blow, especially in the low range, but others see that kind of tuba as an air hog. But the horns I find stuffy/tight are considered easy to play by some others, and the ones I think are an easy blow are not for some folks’ taste. Not sure what that means other than “try before you buy” is always the best policy. But, I digress.

At least for me, the 2011RA is neither stuffy nor is it an air hog. It may not reach out and shake hands with everyone, but we made fast friends. It certainly is easy to handle and could fit the bill for an old man horn without sacrificing size and quality of sound or playability.

YMMV, of course.