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YorkNumber3 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:48 am The rotary 4th aids ergonomics if the player dislikes the reach on a typical 3+1 compensator. It’s still a LH 4th only close in. The one I played actually felt a bit awkward and cramped, but I have 38” sleeve.

Modifying compensators seems less of a thing in the US. Pull them out of the box and play them. As bloke has shown (iirc) a couple of times, some simple things can make a difference for the better. 3rd comp loop, etc. set needs set up.

My shirts are 36-37, so I hear what you're saying. But, of course, my circumference negates some of that gorilla reach. Even so, I have no problem with the 3+1 (gorilla reach is probably helpful in my case), and I suppose a rotary 4th being closer in would be ok, but might require getting used to it.

I've read the posts about 3rd comp loop before, and maybe I didn't pay close enough attention to remember the benefits of that mod, but I don't notice anything on mine involving 3rd valve that needs work. Has this been addressed in modern Eb's?

Incidentally... The only note that requires something besides button-mashing is low Ab 1&4 - Even with both slides all the way in (my normal position for them anyway), it wants to naturally resonate a just a smidge flat, although it can be brought in tune just fine.

Just play that low A-flat way too loud, and the pitch will ride right up to where it needs to be.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:30 am Just play that low A-flat way too loud, and the pitch will ride right up to where it needs to be.

The low F is really good on the 983, if pull out either the third valve slide (which is the most 'outboard' one), or the first valve slide (which is more 'inboard'). Nobody buys an Eb tuba for a really great low E natural . . . do they?

I like Eb tuba in theory. That may sound like a weird statement but let me explain.

Eb tuba, especially the bigger ones, have the potential to do a lot of different things pretty well. However, as bloke has mentioned, several of the bigger ones are hard to steer pitch-wise.

Most of them are easier to play in the lower register than their F tuba counterparts, in my opinion. Probably due to being slightly longer? That’s what I really liked about the 2141 I briefly owned. My Willson is good, but the 2141 was better.

Yes, nobody buys an Eb tuba for a good E natural. However, I personally like bass tubas with a more solid-feeling low register. I also understand many others prefer rotary models! For what I use my bass tuba for, I prefer the models on the larger side.

I wish these tubas were more popular and more accessible. Eb has the potential to be great for so many. I’ve always thought that were I a student in high school looking to go into music, I might buy a bass tuba FIRST, rather than the big horn. Maybe a thread for a different day!

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:06 pm ... but I'd buy a 321 again if the right deal came along at the right time (and then I'd have some triggers installed).

Rob, I bet I have the right deal. Is this the right time?...

“No one buys an E flat tuba for the low E“
============
That may be true, and is it also true that 5 valve C tuba players don’t buy a C for the low D, since the closest valve combination is about 5 or 6 inches too short?
=============
It seems that many contrabass tubas are set up to address their low range tuning problems, but not so much with bass tubas…
…YET, it is bass tubas that college aged children’s parents purchase for them to play gymnastic recital pieces in front of a few of their friends - that cover the entire range of the instrument.

Perhaps why the bass tuba is not generally optimized for low range is because walleye contrabass tubas exist, so folk who need that low range have the proper (or at least more apt) tool for the job.

The other half of it is likely for those that play both, they have a more developed capacity for the low range, so they can bring more skill to bear addressing the greater demand of giving a bass tuba what it needs to sound acceptable down there.

I am guilty as any of them, with my current set up, as the composer put a low d in parenthesis, and i am taking it (granted, that is an obvious decision, being a pedal tone rather than a false tone) but i am making the same decision the rest of the concert, being the only tuba.

Although i feel i should credit the mouthpiece as much as the tuba.

SIDEBAR:

For SCHOOL use, WTH ever happened to THREE-VALVE COMPENSATING instruments?
(yeah...I've asked this before, but whatever... )

(As is known, the only usable-on-the-fly (requiring NO frantic slide-pulling) 4-valve NON-compensating valve combination is 2-3-4.
All of the other very low valve combinations (non-compensating 4-valve) are out-of-tune.

(For E-FLAT tubas (topical) transpose UP a perfect 4th from the "chart", below.)
btw...for top-action love-to-haters, a FRONT-ACTION three-valve compensating system would be easier to
"plumb" than a FRONT-ACTION four-valve compensating system...and the four-valve system has already been designed.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:32 pm I They are quite comfortable to hold and play, but not for those who insist on trying to hold them the same way one would hold a front-action tuba.

Could you elaborate on that? I prefer the ergonomics of a front action( maybe because I'm significantly smaller than you?) Because I find them less top heavy. Perhaps I'm just missing something? I do think 3+1 is more logical than the 4 inline I have on my 853. I would've seriously considered a JP377(and would still love to try one) were it available with smaller bell options.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:08 am ...Yes, nobody buys an Eb tuba for a good E natural. However, I personally like bass tubas with a more solid-feeling low register. I also understand many others prefer rotary models! For what I use my bass tuba for, I prefer the models on the larger side.

I wish these tubas were more popular and more accessible. Eb has the potential to be great for so many. I’ve always thought that were I a student in high school looking to go into music, I might buy a bass tuba FIRST, rather than the big horn. Maybe a thread for a different day!

I have to say, that in the last several months, I have been playing my Eb in a Concert Band setting and have been loving it! I have been playing a CC as my primary instrument for the last 30ish years with some F tuba sprinkled in there, but I love the sound and range of my Eb. In college, I never could have pulled off playing an Eb in any of the top groups (except for Orchestra) because the directors wanted a sound darker and more robust than what a CC Mirafone (at the time only 186, and 188 is what we had available to us) would have provided. AND this was at the University where Bill Rose taught. We all mostly had B&S or Alex tubas. I find that logic about Mirafones (186, 188) flawed in hindsight.

With a compensating E flat 3+1, I find it most comfortable to rest it up on top of my left thigh right next to my gut. and I don’t tilt it off to the right very much at all. With this strategy, I can either sit up straight or slouch, and play comfortably for hours.
Due to the size, I tend to move the B-flat 3+1 over slightly off my left leg, but still keep it mostly upright and oriented left-ish. If you saw the picture of the big 24 inch bell front version of the Besson in a gig thread that I put up, that one necessarily is going to throw weight off to the right, but - to be fair with Besson, that is a bastardized version of one of their models which they tried to adapt for the American market in the 1950s and 1960s. The unadulterated version of the B-flat featured a modest 17 inch upright bell, and with no heavy bell connector rings, either.
We come in all shapes and sizes, but maybe these holding/playing strategies work for more sizes than my own…??
That one hour outdoor community band concert did let me know that that big 24 inch recording Bell was up there… L O L…, but it was manageable. Had there been better chairs (there were crappy plastic seated folding chairs that slumped down towards the back), I think it would’ve been noticed by me even less, and also the wind would catch that big bell occasionally.
At least, the sound I was making was going forward, instead of up into space.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 7:21 am “No one buys an E flat tuba for the low E“
============
That may be true, and is it also true that 5 valve C tuba players don’t buy a C for the low D, since the closest valve combination is about 5 or 6 inches too short?

The old Miraphone long 5th valve on a CC does pretty well for the low D. I wouldn't have thought I'd care much, but I'm seeing low D more often in my band music.

jtm wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 2:12 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 7:21 am “No one buys an E flat tuba for the low E“
============
That may be true, and is it also true that 5 valve C tuba players don’t buy a C for the low D, since the closest valve combination is about 5 or 6 inches too short?

The old Miraphone long 5th valve on a CC does pretty well for the low D. I wouldn't have thought I'd care much, but I'm seeing low D more often in my band music.

yes, but then isn’t there some other really low pitch that suffers instead?
(I’ve been away from that system too long to remember which one…)

bloke “4+2 six valves - with a right thumb first valve spring trigger - is the ultimate answer… and the left thumb is still available for another trigger, if needed. It may seem over the top, but with all of the electronic composing, more and more tuba music is being written in that range. Further, with all of the corrected pitch in recordings, patrons ears are becoming more and more discerning.“

My York, Monster, Eb Frankentuba.

• Valves 1-4 and tubing - .687"
  Valve 5 - Meinl Weston - .690"
  Bell - 19" in diameter
  Lead Pipe - Custom, drawn by me

This tuba has a huge sound with very good intonation. I have played this instrument for Symphony Fantatique, Rite of Spring, Lucia de Lamermoor and Franck, Symphony in D Minor to name a few.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 3:01 pm

jtm wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 2:12 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 7:21 am “No one buys an E flat tuba for the low E“
============
That may be true, and is it also true that 5 valve C tuba players don’t buy a C for the low D, since the closest valve combination is about 5 or 6 inches too short?

The old Miraphone long 5th valve on a CC does pretty well for the low D. I wouldn't have thought I'd care much, but I'm seeing low D more often in my band music.

yes, but then isn’t there some other really low pitch that suffers instead?
(I’ve been away from that system too long to remember which one…)
....

IIRC, maybe not a great solution for low Eb on the old Miraphone system?

Yeah.

A four valve tuba - with only one additional (manual/5th) compensating valve is not going to play every pitch - between the second and first partials - in tune, without some epic slide adjustment for at least one pitch…
… and regardless of the length of that fifth manual compensating valve’s circuit.

Even the most remarkably in-tune tubas could benefit from the 4+2 system plus some sort of right thumb trigger controlling some slide, and maybe even a left thumb trigger controlling some other slide.
this: for dead-on correct circuit links for just about every pitch

(As is known, even three automatic compensating valves aren’t really adequate, as this system “runs out of gas“ at the very last half step - thus my suggestion for an extra long #3 compensating circuit, so as to compensate for inadequate compensation.)

The 5th valve on my Eb is of course the flat whole step; on my BBb it's just a kicker, essentially a flat 0 step valve.

I think I like the flat 0 step better, and per calculation it does look very close, except that it can't reach the last note - the E on Eb, that no one buys an Eb tuba for. That's also by far the easiest modification to make, I suspect, if you're starting with a 4V Eb.

If a long 5th is a flat two whole steps, the numbers look mostly OK for that, but it looks awkward at Ab (on Eb tuba) - 1 _ _ 4 is sharp, _ 2 3 _ 5 is flat. With the flat whole step, that problem moves down to G and F.

donn wrote:The 5th valve on my Eb is of course the flat whole step; on my BBb it's just a kicker, essentially a flat 0 step valve.

I think I like the flat 0 step better, and per calculation it does look very close, except that it can't reach the last note - the E on Eb, that no one buys an Eb tuba for. That's also by far the easiest modification to make, I suspect, if you're starting with a 4V Eb.

If a long 5th is a flat two whole steps, the numbers look mostly OK for that, but it looks awkward at Ab (on Eb tuba) - 1 _ _ 4 is sharp, _ 2 3 _ 5 is flat. With the flat whole step, that problem moves down to G and F.

My Willson 3400 when I purchased it came with the 5th valve slide extension. I have not really used it much. I am wondering maybe I should experiment with it more. Maybe there are some advantages to it. I don’t believe Willson includes the 5th extension anymore.


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Oops, I see from a little web searching that Willson's long 5th, with the extension, is a fourth, where I was thinking a half step less. A flat fourth looks pretty ideal, on paper.