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I'm sure that failing nonprofits are going to want to put out a whole bunch of data showing that they're failing.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:35 pm I tend to wonder if orchestras are dying because those who make the decisions as to what they program (on "classical" concerts) always feel it necessary to mix in at least one piece of poop into every concert (and pieces of poop are not classics, therefore not classical). People don't like listening to poop, certainly not when they're paying to hear music. The only people that listen to poop are college kids who are trying to get enough listening credits to get through a semester... well, maybe composers of poop sit attend other composers' of poop poop-certs, so that they will furnish audiences for each other.

Wiping tears after that YouTube clip!

I had not seen this before and I have not laughed so hard in a very long time. This is why I don't go to the faculty concerts, or even most of the student concerts, at the local U. They are worshipping the wrong god, one of their own making.

Speaking of unions with a bunch of clout...

Is the Hollywood writers strike over?

Hi - just thought I would leave this link to a bunch of financial data on US orchestras.
https://www.causeiq.com/directory/symph ... tras-list/

Not a direct answer as to whether any or all orchestras are failing, but you could get there from here.

Bob

Also...

There just isn't enough money involved to attract competent executive directors (unless some really amazing one retired from being an amazing CEO or COO of a real - ie. for-profit - corporation, just happened to love classical music, and decided to do it as their retirement job...??)
Selling a product for which there is no real demand (while keeping - again - "the help" reasonably happy...and fooling them into believing that they're cared about) is a hell of an uphill job, and requires incredible imagination and skill.

for those whose jobs are melting away quickly or slowly (whatever type of job it may happen to be...)
I might recommend becoming really good and really fast at hanging sheetrock. BlackRock, Inc. is buying up all the houses, and people are going to be looking for falling-down shacks they might (??) be able to afford to buy and shore up - so they can have places to live.

bloke "The only profit involved in non-profits are typically the individual profits - via fat salaries - of one, two, or perhaps three people."

MikeMason wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 8:55 am

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:35 pm I tend to wonder if orchestras are dying because those who make the decisions as to what they program (on "classical" concerts) always feel it necessary to mix in at least one piece of poop into every concert (and pieces of poop are not classics, therefore not classical). People don't like listening to poop, certainly not when they're paying to hear music. The only people that listen to poop are college kids who are trying to get enough listening credits to get through a semester... well, maybe composers of poop sit attend other composers' of poop poop-certs, so that they will furnish audiences for each other.

Wiping tears after that YouTube clip!

I'm still chuckling and I need to stop, NOW!!!

I remember that the trombone section of the band on the Carol Burnett Show was Kai Winding, J. J. Johnson, and George Roberts. I would happily draft all three for my fantasy trombone team.

Again, I only play in freeway philharmonics and only sub in a so-called full-time orchestral (where by the annual pay is c. fast food worker level). The sort of thing in this linked video is why I typically don't show up very early, tend to stick close to the trombones, leave right after a service is done, and - if I go somewhere to eat with musicians between services, (again) it's only the trombones.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/155273925 ... 7S9Ucbxw6v

My conservatory trained daughter - with additional music degrees beyond her conservatory degree - makes considerably more money per hour cleaning houses within a mile of her own house than her husband who plays in one of the nation's major orchestras, particularly if you factor in his travel time and practice time). She still plays engagements on her instrument, but she doesn't make as much money doing that as she does doing things that people actually need done. She does superb work, and why do anything other than superb work when we are working? The people whose houses she keeps clean have told her that she's changed their lives (just in case anyone thinks that her work is taken for granted, and is considered to be undignified, demeaning, and not contributing much).
A multi-millionaire friend of mine has a son with degrees related to investment banking. The young man spent two or three years starting to work his way up in that industry, but his income quadrupled when he and his dad went in together in a business venture where they pull up a barbecue trailer to events and he - the young former investment banker - smokes barbecue, cooks sides, and dishes it all out for the folks. It's the same thing: he's doing real three-dimensional work supplying things that people actually desire. Oh yeah: During his leisure time, he's learning how to play the violin.

I have some regular jobs playing music, but I'd be concerned if they represented the majority of my income, because the people in charge of those organizations don't seem to be particularly interested in what their nonprofits claim to do, which is supporting the arts. How can a corporation support the arts without using ready and available resources (ample money in the bank) to properly support artists? Rather than supporting artists, they're always looking for ways to pay artists the lowest amount possible. All of us always try to get the best deal we can when we buy everything, and if someone would sell us a nice car for $2,500, why should we just hand the person who's selling us the car $12,000? Of course in this supply and demand situation, it makes perfect sense to pay the least amount possible, yet the mission statement with a corporation that's supposed to not be making a profit is to "support the arts"... from what I hear this is the same modus operandi from the bottom to the top of the orchestra industry. I like playing music, but I also like being able to turn on the heat and to purchase a nice piece of beef every once in awhile, or maybe even be able to buy enough gas to drive my car somewhere to visit an old friend. This is why I spend most of my industrious hours doing things that people actually need, or - at least - believe that they need. I just don't have time to both prepare and perform orchestra music while at the same time trying to convince people that they need to consume it. I'd rather be ready to offer a service that people are already convinced they need to consume.

I had lunch recently with a trumpeter who was with the symphony here, quit for a year, and is considering auditioning again (gee the person who got her job ALSO quit, and probably for the same reason) because -- it's money, and she needs the money. Another person in the same general age bracket who won a horn position is also trying to find a different way to support himself, and is disgruntled with the entire field of performing music. I think many of the younger people, who are probably as competent as many of the better paid pros of 50 years ago, find themselves basically out in the cold with that performance degree, stuck with partial seasons with regional orchestras and having no choice for additional income except freeway gigs. I made better money playing electric violin in a rock band.

The $85 jobs at clubs (and sure even the $45 jobs at clubs) back in the early 80s were a lot more money than the adjusted-for-inflation per-service rates today in symphony orchestras, and - back then - orchestras services paid better than club dates - just as they typically do now, but both are way way less money (again: adjusted for inflation).

If someone is playing in a symphony orchestra and are being told that their $30,000 salary is "full-time", I have to believe that those musicians know better than that, because the utility company, the grocery store, the gas station, and the mortgage company or landlord, and the car dealership all tell them that it is not.

In 1979, I made over $30,000 working as a freelance musician in Memphis, Tennessee - and that was some decent money (in 1979 dollars), but it sure isn't now... and I doubt that there are any musicians working freelance in Memphis, Tennessee who make anywhere close to $30,000 (of worthless 2024 dollars), today.

The truth is that whether it's a symphony orchestra's board of directors or it's a man walking into a bar with a MasterCard in his wallet, live music is not highly valued by Americans with disposable income anymore, and musicians don't have time to both practice/perform music and ALSO try to (so-called) "educate" the public - attempting to convince the public that their live performances have monetary worth.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:59 am
If someone is playing in a symphony orchestra and are being told that their $30,000 salary is "full-time", I have to believe that those musicians know better than that, because the utility company, the grocery store, the gas station, and the mortgage company or landlord, and the car dealership all tell them that it is not.

I hereby declare November; “Suspend your disbelief and don’t believe your own lying eyes” month.

... and how would some southern USA (lower cost of living and lower taxes than those to which yankees are subjected) $70K/yr. automobile mechanic react if his employer told him that he had to supply his own lift, his own compressor, and all those sorts of things?...

... or a $30,000 - $45,000 pair of tubas, or an $80,000 bassoon, or a $200,000 cello...

Shouldn't orchestras be leasing those pieces of equipment from the musicians for at least a couple hundred bucks per week, and - if not - owning a set of instruments to supply to the musicians?

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 10:31 am ... and how would some southern USA (lower cost of living and lower taxes than those to which yankees are subjected) $70K/yr. automobile mechanic react if his employer told him that he had to supply his own lift, his own compressor, and all those sorts of things?...

... or a $30,000 - $45,000 pair of tubas, or an $80,000 bassoon, or a $200,000 cello...

Shouldn't orchestras be leasing those pieces of equipment from the musicians for at least a couple hundred bucks per week, and - if not - owning a set of instruments to supply to the musicians?

Lucky guy only has to bring 5-10k+ of hand tools with him!

I thought wealthy patrons bought those spensive cellos and violins?

sidebar:

The place that I go has one large cabinet (in the center of the shop) of shop-owned wrenches (etc.) and not a bunch of separate ones that belong to each mechanic.

...and - mostly - they use shop-owned pneumatics.

so - at least lately, in my experience - no.

I DID talk to one - the other day - who told me about the shop he's putting together at home, and all the things he's purchasing for it.

We've all been around harps of this quality, and I avoiding linking the $257,000 one.

https://vanderbiltmusic.com/prince-william/

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:25 am I think many of the younger people, who are probably as competent as many of the better paid pros of 50 years ago, find themselves basically out in the cold with that performance degree, stuck with partial seasons with regional orchestras and having no choice for additional income except freeway gigs.

Pretty much the story of my life.....
I'm now 44. But when I played in a regional orchestra, I was only in my 20s; just months after college graduation. I did the regional orchestra for 4 years, but it was only part time work/pay, and it was 2 hours away. Some people drove much further distances to play in that small orchestra.
There have been at least 4 other tuba players in that orchestra since I quit....

I'm doing other gigs here in my town, but it isn't nearly enough. The local symphony guy most likely was given the gig because of his position in another similar city symphony orchestra close by that he has played in since the 90s.
That orchestra here went thru a couple of players over the last 15 years before the fixture guy they have now. He will stay as long as he can, like he has the other orchestra he is in. He does not live in either city the orchestras are based in, either.

That said, there is far too much focus on orchestras anyway.
I like -- and can play -- various types of music & styles.
I'd love for a modern revival of dance bands and pro concert bands pop up everywhere. I miss playing in a good, large concert band with at least a couple other good tuba players. I think the late Bill Bell had one of the best tuba/sousa careers -- playing in the Sousa, Armco and Goldman bands, as well as the Cincinnati Orchestra and New York Philharmonic.

I'm under the impression that people like William Bell had to play all sorts of jobs (not just teaching, but live radio, summer bands, polka and dixie jobs, dance band jobs, store promotions, you name it) in order to cobble a living together, because jobs like the New York Philharmonic - during the time that he played in it - didn't pay spit. I expect that when Indiana start hiring all those players who were retirement age but really didn't have any money to retire, they all thought they were in heaven.

A guy who was in my high school class ended up being a professor of trumpet at IU. 25 years ago we had a reunion of the social crowd from high school, and I mentioned to him that he must have gotten his doctorate along the way, but he said, "I just barely got my bachelor's." Someone of his skill level (which was high, but the first trumpet in Tucson now, a regional orchestra, is way better than he was) now -- would have extreme difficulty making a living in music. Those who CAN do something else, should get that in order and aim towards having high level musical fun with similar others. There was another in my high school class, a violinist, who ended up in Atlanta, back of the 2nd violin section, but still Atlanta -- and she was also someone who could not do anything else. I don't know where those people end up today, because the world is different. Cleaning houses, no matter the skill level of the musician or the unused other academic abilities? Yikes. I am SO happy I realized I did not belong trying to make a living that way, and that I was able to take my 30s and educate myself for something else. And I would be more than happy to pay someone to clean my house who had the ability to achieve a high level as a musician, and then maybe play duets afterwards.