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LeMark wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 12:26 pm That's a great suggestion. Shorten the brass elbows instead of the inner and outer tubing. I keep all of the length of the pull, but I still get an overall shorter slide.

I also found that the D below the staff might be the one sharp note, so I still have the 1st valve pull to fix that if for some reason I don't want to play it 3rd valve

Cool horn! Does 14 pull or 124 push work better for low Eb?

Looks like 124 is closer, about 15-20 cents flat, but I can center it with ease if I try

LeMark wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:06 pm Looks like 124 is closer, about 15-20 cents flat, but I can center it with ease if I try

The Holton 345 B-flat's #1 slide is crazy long, but (whether-or-not deemed to be too much work) allows for a good double-low E-flat, a well-tuned double-low D-flat, and a valved double-low C (probably not a B-natural, without pulling out just about everything else up there, but seriously...

It won't fix 2-4, but if someone doesn't mind reaching over to its #4 slide...

>>> ' sorry for the (mostly) non sequitur, but spent a few hours today working on one of those.

I am rethinking my plan to shorten the 1st valve slide, because the D below the staff isn't just sharp, so far it's crazy sharp, like 40-45 cents. I could pull the 1st valve slide a lot to make it in tune, or I could get used to playing it 3rd valve, or a combination of both

The more I play it, the more in tune the in staff C is. It's usable right now

Something new I've never seen before... When the 4th valve is tuned for low C, that makes F flat like a trombone 4th valve, but 1-3 is a very in tune option.

Im not going to cut anything for a while, I want to live with this for a while and see what it's like when I've had it a couple of months. I don't have another symphony concert until the end of January

I pull my first slide out to the very end of the stop rod that I've mounted on it to play C with 1-3, because that pitch with tubas of all different lengths is usually considerably flatter than the low pitch (2nd partial) with fourth valve, which - in this case - is "low F". I take advantage of that third partial fourth valve note being flat, and play B-natural 2-4.

I pull out for 1-2 D nearly as far as for 1-3 C.

It took me about a month to learn the positions for the first slide on this tuba, but they're all within about a two and a half inch range - with second space c being as far out as I've allowed it to pull, and C just below the staff being as far out as I can pull it on my stop rod. All other 1st slide tuning is somewhere in between those two positions.

No tuba this large is going to be a tuba where one can simply mash buttons and blow, but I've got everything under control with the left hand not having to leave its position. You could look back through the long thread that I posted about this stuff and get some ideas.

It's easier to explain verbally then typing crap into this text box, but maybe (??) I made it clear enough...

I'm trying to help and give you some ideas, because these things work for me.

I (er...Bloke) shortened the first vale slide on my 345 and that helps me with the C on the staff when I'm playing that pitch softly and more sustained. Playing it loudly pushes it sharp anyway, and the band is generally playing that note just as flat as I might be. But generally I don't do a lot of slide pulling beyond that.

The Hirsbrunner famously has a centering spring arrangement and trombone-slide socks on the first valve slide just to permit quick, one-finger manipulation and automatic return. They did not, however, vent the first valve, and I've not yet had the courage to drill a hole in the valve casing.

The first valve slide on my Giardinelli/B&S 101 is a candidate for shortening. That tuba has excellent intonation generally but the fifth partial doesn't prove that point.

As to the low D, I wonder if 2-3-4 will play that more manageably than 1-2-4 with a long pull. I'd much rather push the pitch than try to pull it. On both the Holton and the Hirsbrunner, I use the false-tone on the second valve for the low D, and can usually center the pitch easily enough. But if I was paid to play in that half-octave on any routine basis, I'd look for a fifth-valve solution. I'd also have to transplant the person sitting in the chair with somebody who doesn't have the shakes couple to other general incompetence. Thus, I have very little reason to ever want to pull the first valve any distance.

Rick "just chem-cleaned the Hirsbrunner and loving the smooth valves" Denney

The D that is so sharp is the one right below the staff

LeMark wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:35 pm The D that is so sharp is the one right below the staff

Is there a third-valve-only tuning solution for it?

Rick "thinking it would take about 4" of pull for a quarter-tone" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:50 pm

LeMark wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:35 pm The D that is so sharp is the one right below the staff

Is there a third-valve-only tuning solution for it?

Rick "thinking it would take about 4" of pull for a quarter-tone" Denney

Typically, 3rd valve "D" (for D just below the staff) is too flat, as the 3rd slide needs to be out far enough for low F-sharp to not be horribly sharp (yes, I know...which is always compromise-tuned against the flat F-sharp at the bottom of the staff).

bloke "Tubas vary, but the tendencies to which I refer are typical, and - again - it's the rare tuba which offers - simply - mash-buttons-and-blow serendipity."

...my secret weapon for F-sharp at the bottom of the staff:
(This is the #3 slide, which is on the BACK of the instrument...and my left hand CONTINUES to grasp the #1 slide.)

D 3rd valve only helps it a bit. It's still almost just as sharp

Here's a breakdown of what I consider the most problematic notes

D right below the staff... Very Sharp, needs 3 to 4 inches of pull to get it close. Main tuning slide is LONG, and so is the 1st valve slide

F and F# above that, 15-20 cents flat, can be centered with the face, or bring in the main slide about an inch an a half (all the way in). Bringing out the 3rd valve slide and leaving it out really isn't an option because the Db below the staff is a bit flat already, and the D in the staff is perfect 2-3. 1-3 does help the F a lot. Not sure I want to do that every time.

C in the staff. Useable but flat. Main tuning slide in an inch is nice, or if I shorten the 1st valve slide, I can adjust it that way. Pretty close when I use 4th valve.

Db in the staff, flat using 2nd valve. Perfect when fingered 2-3


Because of the F and the F sharp being flat and not effected by the 1st valve, I'm more tempted to put a main tuning slide rod on this one than mess with the 1st valve slide. Every "in tune" note on the horn is when the MTS is about an inch and a half out, so I would have room to bring it in or push it out.

I swear if it wasn't for that dang D, I wouldn't even worry about it, because I think my ears would center everything when I'm playing with a group. 15 cents is one thing, 35 to 40 is another.

Dents Be Gone! wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:15 pm If this were my tuba, I might go through it looking for burrs and blobs. Poorly cut elbows, pinched tubing, and the like can affect things for the worse. I’d also look at how the leadpipe enters the valve set, the connections between the valves, how the valve set exits to the main slide, and the connection to the dogleg out of the main slide into the body.

How would you recommend deblobifying and un-burr-erizing a horn? Or rather, what would you do to check for burrs and blobs? Borescope, feelers, snakes...?

I have a good borescope that I used to align the valves, and I didn't see anything problematic

arpthark wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:07 pm Yeah, due to budget cuts, only American and Delta provide in-flight drinks and food for tubas now. United will only serve euphoniums.

Really? I'd be tempted to take a flight just for an inflight euph...

Er... ps. Congrats on the cerveny!

It's been so long since I've been to Texas. I really ought to come down there and annoy some of you folks, and Mark, I should bring Fat Bastard down there so we can do Show and Tell and comparisons. I bet they're not all that different, particularly as that model that you purchased has a fairly wide bell - instead of the typical skinny Kaiser bell.

OK, still playing the tuba and getting used to the way it blows

I'm leaving the 1st valve slide out, knowing it will torpedo the C in the staff, but if I play that 4th valve, it's a major win for most of the other notes that are sharp

E, F, and F# are flat, so I'm still thinking of cutting the main tuning slide a couple inches and putting a stick on it. Bringing the slide in for those notes would take care of that, and would probably allow me to play C with the 1st valve after all

I have plenty of length with the MTS to lose a little. The "in tune" placement is about an inch out, maybe and inch and a half.

If I shortened it by two inches, I woijd have enough flexibility to go in 3 inches from "in tune" or out at least two more inches. That's enough to solve any problem

F & E are flat, because they are open-and-nearly-open third partial on a big tuba and F-sharp is flat because it's 4rd partial on the 2-3 combination...all: textbook.

You may think this sounds crazy, but if you attach your stick on your main tuning slide to your first valve slide, you can keep your hand there all the time, and when you pull your first valve slide up to fix those particular three pitches the fact that you're pulling the first valve slide out will have no effect on any of those three (as none involve the #1 circuit). The advantage is that you won't have to move your hand off the #1 slide.

The way to make this viable, though, is that you will need to attach a teeter-totter somewhere between your stick coming down from your first valve slide and your main slide. In this way, when you pull out for sharp pitches that do involve the first valve, you won't have to pull out but half as far, because it will simultaneously throw out the first and main slides.

Feel free to either label me a kook or a genius, but I think it's pretty cool that you could keep your hand on the first slide all the time, instead of frantically moving back and forth between it and a main slide stick, yes?

I considered this with my tuba, but - with both of us realizing that there has been some technology developed since your tuba was built that finds better tuning compromises for bugle tapers - my E & F neither are particularly flat...only a very small amount, and - as you've seen - I came up with a way to address the F-sharp problem individually, but also without moving my hand off the #1 slide.

Since you would be moving your first slide with the teeter-totter two-slides-at-once gadget I'm suggesting, you just might want to put a little device along the way were two little things articulate that you can feel articulating but don't really cause a nuisance, so you can physically feel where center tuning is, in case things get a little frantic... you know: in the same way that children used to clothespin playing cards to their bikes frames - so they would catch on their spokes.

again:
just tossing out ideas to you, just in case you think they might be helpful.

Yes, I see what you are saying, but I suppose both the MTS and the 1st valve slide would have to be as free and slicked up as a trombone hand slide, because you are trying to move 4 tubes at once

I'm laughing over here because I'm measuring how long the threaded rod would have to be to go from the top of the upper branch to the main tuning slide when it's all the way out

The answer is 850mm, or 33 inches. Approx the length of a trombone slide cleanong rod

I've had tubas that weren't that tall