TubaForum.net

Hello everyone,

Here is my comparison of the Bydlo solo from ‘Pictures at an Exhibition’.

Played on my Eastman EBF 866 F tuba and the
Wessex French C-Tuba TC236 P.

With its unmistakable sound, this extraordinary tuba in C can often be heard in pieces such as Ravel's ‘Pictures at an Exhibition’, Franck's ‘Symphony in D minor’, Saint-Saëns' “Organ Symphony”. A must for orchestral musicians who want to perform these works authentically.

Which do you prefer? Bass tuba or French C tuba?

I've rarely had chances to play "Pictures" (I'm thinking, only twice), but I've used a Yamaha euphonium with a not particularly large mouthpiece, which defines the tuning as easier to steer. Decades ago, I auditioned for a job using F tuba on that excerpt (finals) - and I did a good job, but then I found out that the music director was a baritone horn player. LOL. I've altered my F tuba since that time , but - at that time - my fifth slide was shorter, and I was able to push it in enough to play that G sharp easily in tune with the fifth valve alone . The G sharp with most B&S-style F tubas tends flat, and the combination of flat and high is not a good one, in my view.

I play quite a few things written for French tuba with a good-playing compensating euphonium with a nearly absurdly large bell and the large bore (something like .590"). Basically, it's the model that B&S made before they switched over to making the Bessons, and I use a Doug Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece with it when covering French tuba parts. I've played through the "Pictures" excerpt with this huge instrument quite a few times with a normal mouthpiece. I can do it and with practice I become strong enough to do it well (as the huge instrument requires more effort to play in the higher range), but I still believe that the much smaller bell on the Yamaha 321 offers a particular type of resonance that makes it out into the hall more effectively, particularly when paired up with a medium-sized mouthpiece, and not a typical deep euphonium mouthpiece. Also, most of the French tubas were not much bigger - if any bigger - than a Yamaha 321 euphonium, and (de facto) A flat minor is a pretty good key on the euphonium, and arguably a better key than on a C-pitched (and more dubious-tuning-tendencies - as well as usually more expensive) French tuba.

For the rest of "Pictures", I would use a big tuba, because of all the other huge hardware that everyone else uses these days and even the strings are much louder than they were in the days of Ravel.

Recordings demonstrate that the ox cart movement is interpreted at all sorts of speeds, and the speed at which you play it on your recording is one of them that is not uncommon. I tend to suspect (??) that the ox cart in the painting may have been an ox cart carrying corpses to be buried , so that's probably a really appropriate tempo for that scenario, but nevertheless I would beg a music director to consider a little bit faster one. In my own mind, I also imagine the odd juxtaposition of the person driving the cart singing this song while the cart rumbles along, so - even though it seems like such a somber thing, I would probably put a good bit of musical phrasing into the melody. To me, the combination of someone singing an expressive melody while driving a cart loaded with corpses is macabre, and possibly (??) what was intended, though I'm not a music history scholar, so I could be completely off base.

I heard the G# as flat on the F tuba, and a bit strained. So I like the French C tuba better.
Heh, try it on a Norwegian Star -- it can do that solo quite well.

While both versions are more than presentable,
I liked the French C-Tuba version better.
Compared to the F-tuba, it sounded more like "home range" of that instrument (a somehow more resonant sound, if that makes sense).

IMHO, the best way to showcase the unique qualities of the French tuba is in the mid- and lower ranges; something like Franck D minor for instance. When adding so much straight pipe (aka: valves), the instrument essentially becomes a cylindrical bore instrument, and as a result, blends really well with the trombones and other brass.

Roland Szentpali has an old video on youtube of this solo, and of course sounding perfect on a saxhorn. I guess that should be acoustically similar, just fewer valves, but to my eye this Wessex seems to have a fatter bell.

donn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 5:22 pm to my eye this Wessex seems to have a fatter bell.

This instrument is a very accurate copy of my 1931 Couesnon French tuba, so is typical of the authentic genre. And ... French tubas are by definition 'saxhorns'. No idea what Roland was playing.

In that recording Roland plays his ca 1910 Sax (junior) Bb saxhorn bariton (3+1 valves). Nice playing instrument, I tried it once. The French C tuba derives from the saxhorns, but is more conical after the valves than the saxhorns, so it's a bit different to play with a stronger low register.
Of course I like the sound of the French C more on Daniel's recording, the F tuba starts to sound uncomfortable when going high.
And I remember when I played the Bydlo on French C to show it to some students of Roger Bobo. After listening to me Roger turned to the students and said: that's how it is supposed to sound. Don't let us make a circus piece out of it only to show how high we can play.

...and (again) I use (depending on range) either a compensating/large or a non-compensating medium-size version (ie. British-style "euphonium) B-flat version of a C "French tuba" to cover a good bit of the French literature.

- I know where the tuning is (as well as which buttons to mash).
- I don't have to buy a $3000 copy of a French tuba (not that I'm rolling in dough, right now).
Being a "bottom feeder", I actually paid $850 (new condition w/case) for a "stencil" of one of these...
https://store.weinermusic.com/products/ ... ered-751-l
...and $100 (ok condition, no case) for one of these:
https://www.musicarts.com/yamaha-yep-32 ... ain0034318
- I don't have to become accustomed to a French tuba's 3+3 system.

Again: With particular French composers (and Ravel's "Pictures" orchestration) I would do as do most players and use a large contrabass for the low tessitura movements. Modern ears are accustomed to a modern tuba sound (take your pick: the so-called "European" kaiser 6/4 sound or the so-called "American" wide-belled "Hollywood movies" 6/4 sound), and it's my job to "play stuff like the record" (as symphony orchestras - these days, resonances-in-general have become so homogenized and are little more than cover bands). My job is not to be an educator and it certainly isn't to raise the eyebrows of the music director. My job is to be offered a renewed contract each subsequent year via the music director rarely-if-ever uttering the word "tuba" in rehearsals.

This (in regards to not buying a copy of a French tuba) may be "wrong", but - for all of the reasons/motives listed here - is right for me.
___________________________________
addendums/post scripts

Franck d-minor...??
Sure, I'd play through a rehearsal on my (very large with contrabass trombone mouthpiece) compensating euphonium, and - if deemed "good", I'd use it on the show.

my tendencies...??
I don't necessarily pull out "the largest possible tuba that I can get away with playing".
I have an October show which features two of the "not most amazing tuba parts ever written", yet they are important and heard (Elgar, fwiw) parts:
- Pomp & Circumstance 1
- Enigma Variations

I fb messaged the M.D., and I'm running through BOTH those (first) with the F tuba.
If he's not hearing enough "Hollywood", I'll fetch FatBastard from the truck of the car.


bloke "with apologies for redundancy"

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:34 pm In that recording Roland plays his ca 1910 Sax (junior) Bb saxhorn bariton (3+1 valves). Nice playing instrument, I tried it once. The French C tuba derives from the saxhorns, but is more conical after the valves than the saxhorns, so it's a bit different to play with a stronger low register.

Ah, so not nominally a saxhorn basse, but I have the impression that between various makes the distinction between bariton and basse isn't super reliable. I'd like to hear it on one of the modern 5 valve basse models from Courtois or Willson, but I wouldn't be surprised if this loses a little of the tonal balance Szentpali gets there.

The French tuba is of course a saxhorn despite what others might say. It is a "saxhorn basse en Ut" in fact.

This topic certainly seems to 'trigger' some of the TNFJ.

It doesn't trigger me, but I already play a fully chromatic one that's one whole step longer (which most people would label a compensating euphonium) and I just moved from C to B flat with my contrabass instruments. I'm getting ready to see if I can teach myself how play the B-flat bass saxophone, and I just don't have time (having just moved away from other C instruments, and not being a young man) to learn how to play a non-compensating C euphonium at this point in my life, particulrly when I don't see what it's going to do for me. I'm probably missing something. Maybe I should be fooling around with one of these instead of the bass saxophone, but I find the bass saxophone to be more intriguing (certainly more fun to look at), since it's a whole lot different from my B flat fully chromatic euphonium...
...A while back, I threw up a short something or other on the compensating euphonium with a really large mouthpiece playing some low tuba excerpt...OK, I believe it was that F minor scale excerpt from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet..??...and you could VERY likely do it noticeably better, because you've been messing a bunch playing really low with a C euphonium) but - truth be told - I don't particularly like it. ... but according to a timeline that I have looked at regarding his compositions, he seems to have composed this music when in Paris, France.

edit:
Okay, I actually found it with the tubaforum search engine. It's not very good. It's blatty and it's out of tune, but it was my first shot at trying something like that. Even if I had a better handle on the tuning spent a good bit of time - like a year - getting accustomed to playing in that range on this size instrument, I don't think I would have liked it.
https://imgur.com/vvWDDzE

French C

[quote

donn wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:03 pm Ah, so not nominally a saxhorn basse, but I have the impression that between various makes the distinction between bariton and basse isn't super reliable. I'd like to hear it on one of the modern 5 valve basse models from Courtois or Willson, but I wouldn't be surprised if this loses a little of the tonal balance Szentpali gets there.

According to the Watelle method (1913) it's not the size but the number of valves making the difference (for both C and Bb):
three valves=saxhorn tenor
four valves=saxhorn bariton
five valves=saxhorn basse
six valves=tuba

The modern saxhorns from Courtois and Willson have four compensated valves like any euphonium, so they get stuffy between Eb and B natural under the staff. Not used at Bydlo you wouldn't hear much difference, same to having a fifth valve. Last company offering a five valve saxhorn is Couesnon.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:42 pmThe French tuba is of course a saxhorn despite what others might say. It is a "saxhorn basse en Ut" in fact.

I agree technically, but it's special with the much wider tubing. I never found this on any four or five valve saxhorn.
And the French people add some confusion to the nomenclature in calling all saxhorns sometimes tuba or all valved brass in this range saxhorn (including the prussian/bohemian oval ones and british euphoniums)

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:16 pm ...and (again) I use (depending on range) either a compensating/large or a non-compensating medium-size version (ie. British-style "euphonium) B-flat version of a C "French tuba" to cover a good bit of the French literature.

Nobody blames you for that!

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:32 pm

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:42 pmThe French tuba is of course a saxhorn despite what others might say. It is a "saxhorn basse en Ut" in fact.

I agree technically, but it's special with the much wider tubing. I never found this on any four or five valve saxhorn.
And the French people add some confusion to the nomenclature in calling all saxhorns sometimes tuba or all valved brass in this range saxhorn (including the prussian/bohemian oval ones and british euphoniums)

It's almost like there's an infinite number of tiny variations in this range, each of which is close enough to the others that in the hands of an indifferent player you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference, so it's hard to enforce a well defined taxonomy. But whatever you may call the thing Szentpali is playing, it's clearly enough different to have an effect, and not just because of who's driving it.

While I would despair at this reported French tendency to refer to tubas and euphoniums as saxhorn, the British baritone I'm not so sure. I was just listening to an awfully nice quartet performance from "Saxhorn Fest 2018", some fine players gathered from well known bands, and to my ear they get that meaty saxhorn sound.

Roland's instrument can be called saxhorn with all rights, it shows A.Sax Fils on the bell.
Most french saxhorns are pretty close to the original layout of Sax, when I look at my 1914 Millereaux (which is a direct copy of Sax) and my 1978 Courtois 166 the tubing is just the same.
The six valve c tuba is so different that Roland was struggling to play it in the low register when he tried mine some years ago. And on his CD he avoided the low register as well...
The british baritone is very close in size to the french saxhorn, main difference is the (mostly) shorter leadpipe with the main tuning slide after the valves

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:32 pm According to the Watelle method (1913) it's not the size but the number of valves making the difference (for both C and Bb):
three valves=saxhorn tenor
four valves=saxhorn bariton
five valves=saxhorn basse
six valves=tuba

Though I guess we may not take this too seriously, as on the last count (six values=tuba) the present tuba example presents a contradiction. And I don't see any evidence that anyone else used a classification of 4 different sizes of C/Bb saxhorns, or even 3. It's true that the designs that lean more towards the bass end will often be equipped with more valves, but it isn't definitional.

I should have reviewed Klaus' photo archive before I brought that question up. Now that I have ... I will stick to my claim that the sizes and shapes that turn up as "baryton" and "basse" don't seem to be very well standardized, even with the same marque, but what Szentpali has there looks to me more like the typical "basse" than the "baryton". And one may find the most spindly baryton with 4 valves, and the fattest basse with 3. I'm sure Watelle's method doesn't suffer greatly from his inapt taxonomy of the instrument. The modern baritone from Besson et al. is typically the same slender tenor bore as the older baryton saxhorns.

I'll offer a dissenting opinion: I kinda liked it on F tuba more. Maybe just because I'm used to playing it and hearing it on F. Thinking back to all those hours spent in a practice room with my excerpt book... fun times.

The thing is - whether it's a C non-compensating euphonium-sized instrument ("French tuba") or a B-flat compensating ("English-style") euphonium, it's probably a better bet to play that movement on an instrument of that approximate size and length.

I see videos of European tuba players muscling through that movement with their F tubas (and - mostly - F tubas with large mouthpipes, large bore sizes, and not much built-in resistance. Most all of them do fine jobs, but (opinion) it just doesn't seem to me to be "the thing to do" to publicly perform pieces of music on instruments whereby the the extremes of the ranges of the instruments are pushed to near limits. (Stravinsky did this purposefully with the opening of Rite of Spring which only resulted in bassoonists (who didn't appreciate the high risk) adding keys onto their instruments (mostly) to negotiate that solo in that piece, as well as having special bocals made that favored the extreme high range. In those same (tuba/Bydlo) videos (those whereby the entire Pictures suite is recorded) they move back to their B-flat contrabass tubas after that movement, so - if two instruments -why not move to something even more appropriate (and more safe) ie. a compensating euphonium (or ok...) a "French" tuba in C ?

The earliest tubas (we've all seen them, and a few of us have messed with them) were pitched in F and more resembled ophicleides with valves than anything else. From memory (which could be wrong?) the very first little "French tubas" in C appeared sometime in the 1850's...but that doesn't necessarily mean that a French composer - who wrote a piece of orchestral music around the same year as the first one of those things was made - necessarily had that newly-configured thing in their mind.

As much as the "original instruments" thing is argued, no one ever puts forth reasonable suppositions such as "Could you imagine how cool so-and-so composer would have thought this modern ______-style tuba would have been - offering all of this additional resonance?"

Again...I use a B-flat chromatic (4-valve compensating, rather than 5 or 6 valves) instrument (and with a contrabass trombone mouthpiece by Doug Elliott) that offers me something really similar to a "French tuba in C" when I encounter parts that - to my ears and taste - REALLY benefit from being played on a small/short/(OK...) somewhat-blatty instrument. ...and Berlioz: For most of his works, I've "weened" myself off the F tuba and pull out (again) the compensating euphonium. LOL...so many people sport all this phobia over F-tuba low-C's...so (were it that I nursed the same phobia) why should I be any MORE afraid of that SAME low-C when it appears in Symphonie Fantastique and playing it with all-but-one-button-mashed with my euphonium? Via my huge-belled (B&S-made prior to their current Besson era) compensating euphonium - mashing 1-3-4 plays a really nice low-C, particularly with the Elliott oversized mouthpiece.