TubaForum.net

Dear friends from the board,

I am a composer currently writing a brass quintet and I am really interested in working with removed valve slides.
I am wandering if anybody over here could point me out to some resources (scores, dissertations, charts, etc) dealing specifically with this issue.
The only piece I could find that employs this technique is Mike Fobes' Grumpy Troll but I am sure there must be others...
Any help would be extremely appreciated.
All the best,
n.

Why? They make a nice clanking noise if removed valves are hit together, but why? Nobody would play your piece more than once if valve clanking is a part of it. Only fools would try.

Besides, half of the tubas in this world have rotary valves, nobody would dream of removing them. So, WHY?

First thanks for the reply. What I really mean is to have some valve slides open in order to "short circuit" the pipe and create some new timbral/microtonal possibilities. The real issue for me is that I don't fully understand yet how 4th, 5th and 6ths valves work and how they may behave if removed.... I totally agree there is no sense in really removing a valve. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

One issue I can foresee is that every model of tuba is different. Me pulling the top slide on the 3rd valve of a BBb piston tuba will be blowing through a different amount of tubing than if I pull the 3rd slide from a BBb rotary tuba because of where the valves lay within the bugle (closer or farther from the mouthpiece). Then you throw in the different keyed tubas (BBb, CC, Eb, F) and the amount of variability gets overwhelming.

I can kind of see how this could work on a trumpet (more standardized, only one slide for #1, one for #2, etc.). I have a tuba that has 3 slides just in the #4 circuit.

In general though, 4th valve is the same as 1 + 3, and 5th is a flat #1 although some tubas have #5 as roughly the same to 2 + 3.

Well, removing valve slides is an entire different thing. Nobody objects to that one.

As stated above, variety from tuba to tuba is enormous, four pitches to consider, Bb, C, Eb, F, and actually at least 6 valve systems in use ( 3, 4, 5, 6 plain valves, 3,4 valves compensated, there are in addition a few rare ones like vienna system, major third 3rd valve, augmented half step 5th valve, or full compensated rotary) , and different tubing for rotary and piston valve systems.

So, at least 4x6x2 = 48 common combinations to consider. The instruction remove third slide and play these notes on the sheet will sound very different for each tuba.

I have a CC tuba with four piston valves, one rotary valve, and nine slides.
I have three CC tubas with five rotary valves and seven slides.
I have an F tuba with four piston valves, one rotary valve, and eight slides.
I have an Eb tuba with three piston valves and four slides.
I have two BBb tubas with four piston valves and five slides.

With that in mind, what information is it *specifically* that you are seeking?

You really need to edit your post and title to request information about playing with the slides out and NOT the valves. As stated, you have asked a question that involves risking damage to very costly parts that could render the instrument unplayable. And this is only involving piston valves.

You can forget about very many people ever playing a piece that requires a "prepared tuba" with removed rotary valves, as most owners are unable to figure out how to disassemble and then reassemble them correctly. If they were able to do this and were willing to perform such a piece it would take about a half of an hour to prepare the horn and then an hour to put it back together, so you would automatically be limited to people with piston valved tubas. (I know you meant slides, now, but your title is attracting the wrong response, as is your post. Please rewrite it. And when you do so, please be very specific about what information you want.)

There needs to be a non-BS reason to create such a piece. Please, do not write us yet another piece where the player is required to tap his ring on the bell 47 times, smoke a cigarette, fart, and then play 13 four-note rhythms in box notation in whatever order we choose. Those days were terrible and, thankfully, over.

Making fart sounds into open tube circuits is neither musically interesting nor musically relevant; it has been done before and it was no good back then. Please write us beautiful melodic content and challenging rhythmic material and keep the gimmicks at home. What you are proposing is not clever or new. If it could manage to ever be published it would sit in the bottom of drawers or displays with all the other nonmusical pieces that rely heavily on box notation, fart sounds, tuba-with-tape, or other gimmicks that attempt to present a piece of music that is lacking in any actual, musical content.

I have played far too many bad pieces that were "protected" by the label of "new music". After forty years of this, I have determined that we tubists have a repertoire filled with far too many gimmicky, nonmusical solo works and nowhere near enough quality pieces of actual music.

Whatever you do, please do not allow your piece to be buried by a gimmick. Let it be overwhelmed by your great melodies and motifs.

To paraphrase the great Roger Bobo…

There are two types of effective tuba music — pirate songs and love songs.

HAHAHA!!! I love that. For this instrument this really is fairly true, even today.

I am saying all this because you do not seem to know *anything* about what you want to do, here, to include not even knowing what it means to remove the valves of a brass instrument versus removing the slides. Please think about what I have said.

Best of luck to you, whatever you do.

Thank you Wade. Really well said

Thanks a million for all the insightful replies. You guys are teaching me a lot.
And sorry again for the confusion, english is not my first language.

I tend to agree with "mr. elephant" even though he sometimes sounds a little exasperated. Here's the deal:

1. The main reason behind my question is my desire to learn more about the instrument. Not only historically but also mechanically, etc. as I firmly believe all those domains are intrinsically intertwined and the tuba is not a standardized instrument yet (regardless of whatever this term may mean).
Maybe I sound as I know *nothing* about what I want to do but, trust me, I am a professional composer and instrumentalist who has been studying music for a long, long time.


2. All my pieces reject "gimmicks" and value "idiomaticity" as complexity does not really interest me but depth does. Pirate and love songs are great but I definitely think tuba players deserve to have much more. My problem is that is impossible to write for an instrument without understanding it and to understand it without playing it or asking good players for advice. Mozart asked Stadler. Brahms consulted with Mühlfeld. Berio bugged Rohan de Saram with questions for more than 10 years. Somehow all those farts and cigarettes result from laziness, mutual incomprehension and lack of constructive dialog.

3. As you say, the repertoire is definitely filled with far too many gimmicky, nonmusical solo works and nowhere near enough quality pieces of actual music. It is a great simplification to blame only the composers though. They can sometimes be as stupid as the angriest tuba players but we may still have some exceptions.

4. York-aholic seems to frame the issue wise and helpfully as what he writes is exactly the type of things I am interested on. To me, it is still a mystery how a skilled tuba player choose between the different keyed instruments, valve systems, "compensated" and "non compensated", etc.

5. I find completely mind boggling to read that mr. elephant has almost 8 completely different types of tubas, more than 40 pistons, 20 rotary valves and 50+ slides. I am also sure there are many interesting aesthetical, musical or historical reasons behind this that may help the piece I am currently writing. That's all.

Any thoughts and comments are extremely appreciated. Thank you very very much.

As was pointed out, the rotary type valves are troublesome to remove (with may players being very uncomfortable with casually removing them, and others feeling unqualified to do so), though their circuits' slides can be removed.

With my most expensive PISTON tuba (with the type of valves that are easily removed), I actually painstakingly added some lubrication ports in order to AVOID removing them EXCEPT when at home (in a controlled/safe environment).

the elephant wrote: ↑Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:52 am ...
I have played far too many bad pieces that were "protected" by the label of "new music". After forty years of this, I have determined that we tubists have a repertoire filled with far too many gimmicky, nonmusical solo works and nowhere near enough quality pieces of actual music.
...

That's why we learn trombone and cello repertoire.

Jay Rozen has long performed experimental stuff. One of his trademarks, at least back when he was in Texas and we were in contact, was replacing some of the tuning slides with bells from other instruments. One of his promo pics showed him posing with it.

He would use that to humorous effect, achieving sort of a calliope riff. So, in addition to pirates and lovers, we can be comedians.

That was 30-35 years ago, when his main instrument was a 188. Now, he plays a Yamaha 621 tuba.



Rick “nothing new under the sun” Denney

normancult wrote: ↑Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:02 am 4. York-aholic seems to frame the issue wise and helpfully as what he writes is exactly the type of things I am interested on. To me, it is still a mystery how a skilled tuba player choose between the different keyed instruments, valve systems, "compensated" and "non compensated", etc.

This is the essence of it. If you write good, challenging music having a clear vision of the sound, articulation, range, dynamics, tonal colors and technical challenges of the tuba, any scilled musician can realize it by picking the right tools, er, tuba, and musical expressions, and do what you want. Leave the choice of tools to the experts, concentrate on communicate your music to the player.

After all, that is the reason any musician owns multiple instruments, to ease implementing the wish of the composer.

If you are not clear about what a sculled tubaist can realize or not, I suggest you listen to plenty of music where low brass is used, in all genres, from renaissance to jazz, funk, classic, whatever.

And don't expect that all players can play ultra fortissimo in the lowest pedal, or ultra pianissimo in very fast runs in the very highest register. Technical difficult stuff is best served in middle register. And you know and have checked which range that would be for any of the common four tuba pitches?

You may wish to research a brass quintet composition by Dr Walter Aschaffenburg (Oberlin Conservatory) entitled "from South Mountain" (1987). This work employed the techniques you describe.

Does anyone here possess a compiled list of flute, oboe, clarinet, saxophone, or bassoon solo works that require removing the keys...or timpani solos that require removal of the heads...or violin/viola/cello/bass solos that require removal of the strings ?

Last time I had the keys off a clarinet or bassoon, the playing options were seriously limited.

jtm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:15 pm Last time I had the keys off a clarinet or bassoon, the playing options were seriously limited.

...not if playing techniques include the typical percussive effects requested by many composers...

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:23 am Does anyone here possess a compiled list of flute, oboe, clarinet, saxophone, or bassoon solo works that require removing the keys...or timpani solos that require removal of the heads...or violin/viola/cello/bass solos that require removal of the strings ?

Yes. I compiled a list for each of those solo instruments during grad school. If you are interested, I’ll email it to you...

York-aholic wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:17 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:23 am Does anyone here possess a compiled list of flute, oboe, clarinet, saxophone, or bassoon solo works that require removing the keys...or timpani solos that require removal of the heads...or violin/viola/cello/bass solos that require removal of the strings ?

Yes. I compiled a list for each of those solo instruments during grad school. If you are interested, I’ll email it to you...

If it's easy to access, please send it to my broken fax machine at my discontinued dedicated fax land-line phone number.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:23 am Does anyone here possess a compiled list of flute, oboe, clarinet, saxophone, or bassoon solo works that require removing the keys...or timpani solos that require removal of the heads...or violin/viola/cello/bass solos that require removal of the strings ?

Rap artists use mouth effects that eliminate an entire percussion section.

Hup

hup_d_dup wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:37 am

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:23 am Does anyone here possess a compiled list of flute, oboe, clarinet, saxophone, or bassoon solo works that require removing the keys...or timpani solos that require removal of the heads...or violin/viola/cello/bass solos that require removal of the strings ?

Rap artists use mouth effects that eliminate an entire percussion section.

Hup

Do they remove their teeth?