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Fyi.....

It just seems to me that it really takes guts to participate in one of those and have everyone else hear everything that you aren't doing quite right, hear a master point them out, and then it's their turn...

Also, I would personally cringe if I found out that I had participated in one and then the whole thing was uploaded to the internet, because my playing would be just as flawed as anyone's, if not more so.

edit: To be clear, I'm in admiration of the "guts".

Thanks for posting. Wonderful masterclass with a master teacher. So much good stuff.

The ones I have observed have been mostly with terrified college students. They are so scared they can't play, and as they calm down they start to be able to function. Then credit for the improvement is given to the master who told them things to change. Not all are like this I'm sure, and it's not like the information isn't good -- it's that that is what I have seen in person. I haven't the time to listen to this now but will later. To date all the master classes I have observed have been with horn players, and perhaps the tuba community is different.

Yep, of course the kids are nervous. It’s the suggestions made, whether they can be applied to their or your own situation, that matter. I’ve witnessed a couple of these situations that left me wondering a bit.

I'm really impressed by Mary Ann's insights, whereby a bunch of young people are playing in front of some name player/teacher as well as in front of each other (whereby there all normally either in competition with each other and/or rarely play in front of anyone). Mary Ann pointing out that they are actually super nervous and paying way less attention to what they are doing at first and not playing at their best makes a tremendous amount of sense, and then the fact that they become less nervous and play better later - with the credit going to the clinician, that makes a tremendous amount of sense as well.

I have seen a couple of instances where there have been exceptions to this. I heard a young man play their tuba in a very confidential way that probably sounded really nice to themselves as far as how the sonority vibrated inside their head as they were playing, but what came out the tuba bell was not pleasant sounding to any of the rest of us. The clinician polled all of us and had the student do an A/B thing - whereby the student was shocked when we all voted for B when they played out a whole lot more, because probably they didn't like or weren't in the least bit accustomed to the way that that made their inner ear and the rest of their head vibrate, and how it sounded inside their head when they were playing at what the rest of us would consider to be a full volume and a full sound.
I might even say that they appeared incredulous. Their regular teacher spoke right up and said that they talked to them about this during every single studio lesson, but that the student never believed them, never would change, and yet there had never been a poll of thirty other tuba players available during the studio lessons.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:27 am I'm really impressed by Mary Ann's insights, whereby a bunch of young people are playing in front of some name player/teacher as well as in front of each other (whereby there all normally either in competition with each other and/or rarely play in front of anyone). Mary Ann pointing out that they are actually super nervous and paying way less attention to what they are doing at first and not playing at their best makes a tremendous amount of sense, and then the fact that they become less nervous and play better later - with the credit going to the clinician, that makes a tremendous amount of sense as well.

I have seen a couple of instances where there have been exceptions to this. I heard a young man play their tuba in a very confidential way that probably sounded really nice to themselves as far as how the sonority vibrated inside their head as they were playing, but what came out the tuba bell was not pleasant sounding to any of the rest of us. The clinician polled all of us and had the student do an A/B thing - whereby the student was shocked when we all voted for B when they played out a whole lot more, because probably they didn't like or weren't in the least bit accustomed to the way that that made their inner ear and the rest of their head vibrate, and how it sounded inside their head when they were playing at what the rest of us would consider to be a full volume and a full sound.
I might even say that they appeared incredulous. Their regular teacher spoke right up and said that they talked to them about this during every single studio lesson, but that the student never believed them, never would change, and yet there had never been a poll of thirty other tuba players available during the studio lessons.

I’d count that one a success!

Not a masterclass, but I am reminded of a lesson with Winston Morris once where he said my sound "made his teeth hurt." Boy, did that do wonders for my 18 year old confidence!

I tend to suspect that those of you who play in community band sections encounter the type of player I described in the previous post. Most of your section-mates play out and sound good, but there's one person who you never seem to hear. They don't seem to be taking anything away, but neither do they contribute.
Am I correct in guessing that this is the case, sometimes?

We have two of those in my brass band -- one on each part. They play the notes but you can't hear them; basically, they are not BLOWING. They are blowing.

One of the people I took a few horn lessons from along the way gave me a great concept. He said don't play so you sound gorgeous to yourself because it won't make it out into the hall. From the hall, he sounded very good. Up close, he sounded downright harsh. The only time I can think that this wouldn't apply would be if you are making a close-up recording, you might want to modify your output because you are playing to a mike, not a hall. I think the room you typically practice in can get you into really bad habits; a small room is going to cause you to temper your output.

Yes, there are people who have perfected the art of singing into a microphone vs. those who have perfected the art of singing into a concert hall.

Particularly since about sixty-five years ago when the electric bass guitar began to be used overwhelmingly in popular music, people are accustomed to - and comfortable with - hearing a lot of bass.

The way most symphony orchestra low brass sections are situated, it's still sometimes difficult for the principal trombone players to hear the tuba (particularly when orchestras' venues are those which were really not originally designed as acoustic venues, and were built more oriented towards relying on electronic amplification) because the tuba is pointed out into the hall and away from the trombone players' ears. Such is the case with one of the venues where I play, and the principal and I have discussed having him sit next to me for a couple of concerts, in other words switching the positions of trombones one and three.

Even in early Beatles recordings, Paul McCartney's hollow body Hofner bass guitar wasn't really all that heavy in the mix. Later, round-wound strings became popular, because they helped the electric bass guitar sound stick out even more in the mix.

This post wandered across a lot of subtopics, but the main point is that "big bass" is a relatively thing in western music.

Massive props to the first player for playing the Vaughan Williams and being able to immediately play Fountains at a high level. One would expect him to be tight from the high playing and cold from not playing CC tuba, so their success is an impressive feat!

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 9:18 am Massive props to the first player for playing the Vaughan Williams and being able to immediately play Fountains at a high level. One would expect him to be tight from the high playing and cold from not playing CC tuba, so their success is an impressive feat!

Good point. And even more impressive (to me) since I consider going from CC --> F a bit easier than going from F --> CC.

Something that is interesting about solo tuba playing in general is how many more pitches tend to be dropped in performances - compared to other instruments, whether it's advanced students or seasoned professionals. When we watch live recorded videos of performances of tuba players who don't drop pitches, our jaws tend to drop in amazement.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:27 am I'm really impressed by Mary Ann's insights, whereby a bunch of young people are playing in front of some name player/teacher as well as in front of each other (whereby there all normally either in competition with each other and/or rarely play in front of anyone). Mary Ann pointing out that they are actually super nervous and paying way less attention to what they are doing at first and not playing at their best makes a tremendous amount of sense, and then the fact that they become less nervous and play better later - with the credit going to the clinician, that makes a tremendous amount of sense as well.

I have seen a couple of instances where there have been exceptions to this. I heard a young man play their tuba in a very confidential way that probably sounded really nice to themselves as far as how the sonority vibrated inside their head as they were playing, but what came out the tuba bell was not pleasant sounding to any of the rest of us. The clinician polled all of us and had the student do an A/B thing - whereby the student was shocked when we all voted for B when they played out a whole lot more, because probably they didn't like or weren't in the least bit accustomed to the way that that made their inner ear and the rest of their head vibrate, and how it sounded inside their head when they were playing at what the rest of us would consider to be a full volume and a full sound.
I might even say that they appeared incredulous. Their regular teacher spoke right up and said that they talked to them about this during every single studio lesson, but that the student never believed them, never would change, and yet there had never been a poll of thirty other tuba players available during the studio lessons.

I think Mary Ann is right as well - there are a lot of nerves at play. I also think that it is a lack of experience, though. This is one of those things that I tend to find myself thinking about more than I probably should. When a student gets to a master class like this, they are doing several things that they probably don't get to do enough in lessons or even studio class - (1) Playing for a room full of people knowing they are being judged; (2) Playing while potentially wearing "nicer" clothes than they do at 7am in the practice room; and (3) Playing in a large room. So they are not only likely not playing their best, but they are playing in a setting they are unfamiliar with. Why is it that (in the circumstance when the masterclass presenter also plays) that the presenter sounds so much better? They are probably a full time orchestral player who has played more times in large halls than the student has played...ever. They've honed the technique of filling a big room. They have played in a tux or a suit. And they have been judged so many times they don't care anymore.

All of the above is also a reason to get the students out there to do these things - How can you expect to win an audition if you can't play in a big hall, in a suit, while being judged? It is also why I believe more students should take a session a week in the biggest room available to them, wear a tie, and put as much stress on themselves as possible - recording, friends, in an area where you know teachers will be able to hear - whatever is available. All of it needs to be geared towards learning how to be a mature artist - when you show up in a room, you show people how xyz piece could and should sound - you're not asking if it's good enough.

My friend oldest son trumpeter, never gets nervous.

I was thinking about student prep for one of these while I was driving home from lunch. The idea I got that isn't the same as finding ways to get them actual experience may seem silly, but I think it is worth consideration. Ok don't laugh: get a large person (easy to find in the tuba world) and have him dress up in a Darth Vader costume and hulk around right in front of the student who is rehearsing his piece for the master class. Not only will it help teach the concentration needed, but it can show the student that the fear is in his mind, and that envisioning the master in a Darth Vader costume can really help with that. A new way of approaching the fear aspect, that could bring inner giggles instead of inner tremors.

arpthark wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:46 am Not a masterclass, but I am reminded of a lesson with Winston Morris once where he said my sound "made his teeth hurt." Boy, did that do wonders for my 18 year old confidence!

That sucks. The teacher/presenter/etc. can either be generous and help get the player as comfortable as possible or they can not.

I’m reminded of a conference I attended with my wife. The big name flute player gave a master class in jackassery. He was really rude to everyone that played and complained in the end how everyone was beneath him and wasted his time. People began immediately making excuses for him. “He was tired.” “He had an argument before the session.” BS. He was a jerk. After that, I sat in the hotel bar listening to a very good Irish bagpiper. Bagpipes were better than rude flute nonsense.

MiBrassFS wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 5:30 am That sucks. The teacher/presenter/etc. can either be generous and help get the player as comfortable as possible or they can not.

For a kid who was going into college (not at TTU, and I have nothing but love for RWM) with a big head just having made principal All State Orchestra and thinking I was generally a Tuba Big Shot with my brand-new, parents-funded shiny silver CC tuba, in retrospect it was actually a nice wake-up call, because I was definitely at the bottom of the food chain when I started music school. But boy, some comments just stick with you.

on topic/masterclasses: I have played in some that made me feel good and helped my playing, and I have played in some where I was made to feel like a beginner. Usually the bigger the ego or the more reputation the clinician had as a "firebrand," the less helpful the masterclasses were.

The best one I went to was given by Phil Myers, definitely a big name horn player, and not known for being particularly nice either. But in this one he was courteous and gentle while still pointing out things that were pretty glaring. One young woman who sat and played Strauss 2, he just listened, went up to her and quietly asked a couple of questions, and then said, "I have no comments." Another participant, a young man, Phil heard something and asked him to just pay metronomic 8th notes on a single pitch. The kid simply could not do it and was clearly mortified, but it wasn't because he was being made fun of, but because he could see how lacking he was.
Phil also demonstrated what the hand in the bell does -- without the hand, he played a smooth gliss (no "notes") from G to high C. With the hand, the slots were there. I've never seen another demonstration so clearly showing the use of the right hand.