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It's me again, Margaret.

I was hoping someone might be able to shed a little light on the technique required to squeeze false tones out of my 1240. The entirety of the Intarwebz seems to think this is horn is particularly good for that sort of thing, but I can't get anything out of it lower than an E, 123. Is this simply a matter of just trying and trying and trying until it happens, or is there some voodoo or special techniques that might help me out?

Thanks!

I'm no mathematician, but since there are really no "slots" (theoretically they don't exist), I'd say you need to start with a buzz that must be spot-on....the horn itself will give you little to no assistance in this regard.

Some horns (not sure about the King) will not only give you no help, but will actually hinder you, depending on design.

Other than that, a loose embouchure and a lot of air support is also helpful.

If there is an old Conn sousaphone nearby (NOT the really big short-action-valves one, but the "regular-big" one...like an old brass model 14K or an old fiberglass model 36K...in good shape)...

...try it on one of those.

Those are the EASIEST instruments I've EVER encountered on which to play those pitches that way.

If you can do it on one of those, (at least) you'll know that (simply) your King doesn't do it quite as easily, and its more "the horn" that it is "you".

It’ll help to use the “proper” fingerings and I don’t know if you are. However, for me, it’s always been to use the fingering from the octave and whole-step note above. So, Eb is 0, D is 2nd, Db is 1st, C is 1&2, B nat is 2&3, and pedal Bb is 1&3 (if you’re looking for a similar timbre). This has given reasonably solid slots for all the notes below low E (123). The airstream needs to be pretty big, slow, and unfocused. I’d start by playing down chromatically to the low E and then gently easing into the Eb (open) while hearing the note in your head as clearly as possible. It won’t’ feel good...but will probably come out. The “false/privileged tones” have a pretty wide slot and require a lot of input from the player to be reliable and useful.

Hope that helps.

Yeah, my working theory is false tones are the top of the pedal slot, which is really wide because the tuba is only guiding half the sound wave. Not sure what makes the edge land pitchwise where it does, but it is definitely a feature on the tubas that got it.

I would say yeah, 1240s got pretty good false tones in my recollection.

I should ask if you have played that low range on anything else? If not, then yeah, it is harder, as you're learning 2 new things simultaniously, so finding a way to attack them seperately might be useful. False tones on an Eb put them within a BBb players range, or getting a hold of a 4 valver and sounding low notes also could help.

Baring that, perhaps a wider cup mouthpiece may make low notes easier?

Well, at least keep trying and be patient...
Others here definitely will have better advice, i'm sure.

The false tones on trombone are usually a tritone below the "normal" note, so in 1st position, you get E natural, and so forth. It may be different on tubas.

The only real way to get good at them is to find them, and them play them. Down low the slots are much less restrictive IMHO, so you can just kinda float your buzzing all around, and eventually you'll find some notes that resonate better.

My classmates and I in high school learned how to play privilege tones on old King fiberglass sousaphones by really dropping the jaw, relaxed "big" air, and concentrating on letting the tones play themselves with relaxed embouchure.

I'm with bloke on this one: Pre-Macmillian Conn souzys are the easiest instruments to get the privilege tones to intone and intonate well. If you have access to a good one, the transition is almost seamless and you can get almost all the notes down to true pedal BBb: privilege Eb-0; D-2; Db-1; C-12 or 3, depending on how the bracing is so the nodes or antinodes are not damped; and the rare note: B-nat 23, which I have played one souzy in the last few decades that would do that note.

Size and shape of the room is paramount to the note speaking. No, I will leave others to describe the physics of wave propagation involved. In a "prior life," I lived in a house that when I had the doors shut, and played in the main room, I could get down to about the D or Db. With one door open, either the front or the back door, both of which opened into the main room, I could get the C. With both doors open, I could get the true pedal BBb.

Chris Olka wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:10 pm It’ll help to use the “proper” fingerings and I don’t know if you are. However, for me, it’s always been to use the fingering from the octave and whole-step note above. So, Eb is 0, D is 2nd, Db is 1st, C is 1&2, B nat is 2&3, and pedal Bb is 1&3 (if you’re looking for a similar timbre). This has given reasonably solid slots for all the notes below low E (123). The airstream needs to be pretty big, slow, and unfocused. I’d start by playing down chromatically to the low E and then gently easing into the Eb (open) while hearing the note in your head as clearly as possible. It won’t’ feel good...but will probably come out. The “false/privileged tones” have a pretty wide slot and require a lot of input from the player to be reliable and useful.

Hope that helps.

This advice is spot on! I have been playing a King 1241 Recording Bass for over forty years and I wished I had this advice many years ago. I have found the false tones on my King to play really, really well with practice. Good Luck!

A horn/mouthpiece combo with a little resistance helps me. I have a hard time controlling false tones when a horn is too free blowing.

I suggest trying slurring down Bb-Ab-G-F-Eb (0-1-12-13-0) with no gap between the F and Eb. It's how I began to produce false tones. Working on down the scale to BBb (0-2-12-13-0-2-12-13[0]), I was only able to produce the pedal Bb with 13 at first. It took a couple of weeks before I loosened my lip enough to control the pedal BBb as an open tone.

Also, some horns are not good at producing false tones. You might have someone who's good at them to check your horn to see if your instrument is good at falsies or not.

@sdloveless, can you play the pedal Bb below? I ask because if you’re comfortable playing the pedal, you could work slowly back up from there using the “Eb Tuba” fingerings.

Like Chris mentioned, the airstream has to be relaxed and the embouchure kinda “flabby”. When it does start working, you’ll have to take what you’re given. It’s not like the valved equivalents where you can hammer the snot out of them.

I played 3V Kings in high school and they are quite competent with false tones. As a rough generality, the bigger the tuba throat, the easier it is.

A physicist from Princeton University told me that he believes that a false tone (he called it a ghost tone) is a sub harmonic of higher overtones. As such is would be a "real" tone as opposed to a "false" tone. But of course, ghosts are not real either, are they?

I do believe, as others have stated, that false tones have an actual slot, wide though it may be. You can find it by playing a low Bb (on a Bb horn) or Eb (on an Eb horn) [this is the second partial, not the pedal tone] and relaxing the embouchure slowly until the pitch jumps down to a lower frequency that is still higher than the pedal tone. If you feel the note shift to this pitch, not slide down to it, you will know you are playing a false tone. The false tone will be roughly halfway (about half an octave) between the second partial and the pedal tone.

The timbre of a false tone is thinner and more hollow than other notes in the same range, especially at first. If you work at it you can eventually play very serviceable false tones, although they will always have a somewhat different quality.

Hup

Chris Olka wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:10 pm It’ll help to use the “proper” fingerings and I don’t know if you are. However, for me, it’s always been to use the fingering from the octave and whole-step note above. So, Eb is 0, D is 2nd, Db is 1st, C is 1&2, B nat is 2&3, and pedal Bb is 1&3 (if you’re looking for a similar timbre). This has given reasonably solid slots for all the notes below low E (123). The airstream needs to be pretty big, slow, and unfocused. I’d start by playing down chromatically to the low E and then gently easing into the Eb (open) while hearing the note in your head as clearly as possible. It won’t’ feel good...but will probably come out. The “false/privileged tones” have a pretty wide slot and require a lot of input from the player to be reliable and useful.

Hope that helps.

Thank you, Chris. I had been trying to play down chromatically, but with no success. However, I hadn't been using those fingerings. Will try them tonight and report back here later. Thanks again!

humBell wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:21 pm I should ask if you have played that low range on anything else? If not, then yeah, it is harder, as you're learning 2 new things simultaniously, so finding a way to attack them seperately might be useful. False tones on an Eb put them within a BBb players range, or getting a hold of a 4 valver and sounding low notes also could help.

I hadn't played in over 27 years, but I do recall playing below that low E in high school on a 4 valve horn.

Several others have mentioned Sousaphones. We had fiberglass Conns back in the late 80s, early 90s, but I don't recall ever really doing much with them outside of the marching band parts they handed me.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. As I said in my reply to Chris, I'll try to put some of this into practice later today.

My VERY first tuba was a 3/4 three-upright-valves Conn-like instrument that had a nice tone but was not in tune with itself. It did, however, have an easy false tone but it was, to put it mildly, a very wide slot and yes the chops had to be dead on. Very playable. From there I went to rotors and found them much less likely to have good false tones, but they also had enough valves that it didn't matter.

sdloveless wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:37 am

Chris Olka wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:10 pm It’ll help to use the “proper” fingerings and I don’t know if you are. However, for me, it’s always been to use the fingering from the octave and whole-step note above. So, Eb is 0, D is 2nd, Db is 1st, C is 1&2, B nat is 2&3, and pedal Bb is 1&3 (if you’re looking for a similar timbre). This has given reasonably solid slots for all the notes below low E (123). The airstream needs to be pretty big, slow, and unfocused. I’d start by playing down chromatically to the low E and then gently easing into the Eb (open) while hearing the note in your head as clearly as possible. It won’t’ feel good...but will probably come out. The “false/privileged tones” have a pretty wide slot and require a lot of input from the player to be reliable and useful.

Hope that helps.

Thank you, Chris. I had been trying to play down chromatically, but with no success. However, I hadn't been using those fingerings. Will try them tonight and report back here later. Thanks again!

As promised. Using Chris' suggested fingerings, I was able to play an Eb. Not a whole lot of luck getting much lower just yet, but I'll keep working on it. Also, holy moly! That's a lot of air.

My first false tone was reached by starting on Bb, and with no valves pressed, just sagging the pitch down. Keep going. At some point, the resonance will jump from a primary resonance (the Bb) to a secondary resonance (the Eb false tone).

Then, work on finding the center of that secondary resonance. Play that one pitch for a few weeks until it is solid. Then work your way down.

Rick “preferring the term ‘alternate resonance’” Denney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=535Zy_rf4NU wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:38 pm ...
As promised. Using Chris' suggested fingerings, I was able to play an Eb. Not a whole lot of luck getting much lower just yet, but I'll keep working on it. Also, holy moly! That's a lot of air.

False tones
Privileged tones
Frog tones
Alternate resonance

What other terms are used for these notes?

Doc wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:10 am False tones
Privileged tones
Frog tones
Alternate resonance

What other terms are used for these notes?

In a community band section (with the high school kid down the section doing it), are they called the "Cut that crap out!" tones?

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:41 am

Doc wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:10 am False tones
Privileged tones
Frog tones
Alternate resonance

What other terms are used for these notes?

In a community band section (with the high school kid down the section doing it), are they called the "Cut that crap out!" tones?

It's not just the high school kids: it's also some of the adults who should know better.