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Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 10:47 am
by jtm
My community band needs trombones, at least for a couple months, so I'm filling in. It's been years since I picked up a trombone for more than a few minutes at a time, so I'm working to get back adequate range and slide technique.
And now I'm paying enough attention to notice that my trombone has either flat 5th partials (D, C#, C) or sharp 6th partials (F, E, Eb). Or both.
Is that a normal trombone thing? I can deal with it, of course, but did I really not pay enough attention to tuning to notice a normal thing? Last time I played with a group, it was with a different trombone, so maybe that's significant.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:03 pm
by matt g
It’s a thing.
The Conn 88H has a spring in the slide stop to allow players to “pull in” to get first position D above the staff in tune.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:13 pm
by bloke
It depends on the trombone, just as depends on the tuba. I'm sure you've observed your trombone's tuning characteristics correctly. The old school large bore Conn trombone spring was previously mentioned. Some people don't like them, and sometimes they buzz.
I'm not sure whether those instruments are still outfitted with those from the factory.
I would suggest tuning the instrument with first position out about 3/8 of an inch (or a half an inch or whatever you need) to be able to play D in first position all the way in. To me, it seems like a nice thing to not slam the playing slide against one's mouth every time there's a first position pitch, and I think possible to learn first position in a place that doesn't have a parking place curb - just as it is possible to learn the other positions, particularly since that one is right up there next to the face.
If your instrument is outfitted with an F attachment, another advantage to tuning first position out a little bit is the first position F attachment C, which probably could use that extra schmoozing space - just as could the D.
Don't misinterpret my remarks above:
I'm a really sh!tty trombone player...YET I've tried to play it, have been paid to play it (by those who didn't know any better), BUT
have repaired countless thousands of them... so I have messed with them a bunch once repaired, however deplorably.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:37 pm
by jtm
Thanks! Now that I've looked elsewhere, there's plenty of advice to leave some extra room for the D and to expect F... to be sharp. Last time I cared was in high school, and it's certainly possible that the centimeter difference one way or the other just wasn't that important to me then.
This also shows how wide the slots are on the tubas I play. If I'm listening, I'll just lip them in tune without thinking about it. The trombone is nowhere near as forgiving.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:40 pm
by bloke
jtm wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:37 pm
Thanks! Now that I've looked elsewhere, there's plenty of advice to leave some extra room for the D and to expect F... to be sharp. Last time I cared was in high school, and it's certainly possible that the centimeter difference one way or the other just wasn't that important to me then.
This also shows how wide the slots are on the tubas I play. If I'm listening, I'll just lip them in tune without thinking about it. The trombone is nowhere near as forgiving.
More accurately, it shows how it doesn't matter as much when the tubas are out of tune (with their fluffy sounds) as when trombones (with their clear strident sounds) are out of tune.
bloke "again: not picking on anyone, and only speaking for myself"
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 4:39 am
by Snake Charmer
The nice thing on trombones is that you don't have to lip to be in tune, you just use the big tuning slide in your right hand. Sharp notes are easily corrected by going out a bit and that flat 5th partial (which a lot of valved horns also have) can be avoided when playing the D on 4th position. The Db can be played on a slightly higher 2nd again, but on trombone its good to know all the alternative positions for notes anyway for playing quicker changes or tied notes without glissando
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 6:36 am
by gocsick
Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2024 4:39 am
The nice thing on trombones is that you don't have to lip to be in tune, you just use the big tuning slide in your right hand.
A good trombone player picks me out as a double right away . Use my lips too much instead of small slide adjustments. Always blowing down the center of the note is the hardest thing for me on trombone.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:54 am
by Mary Ann
In that case I think string players would naturally move the slide to get in tune. Same stuff, different instrument.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 10:12 am
by bloke
Yes. D can be played in 4th position when there's a reason to do so, but it's sort of icky to have to do it, for the same reason that it's icky to have to play otherwise "open D" with valves when playing a B-flat tuba with more-than-a-bit out of tune open partials...not to mention (and I really admire the patience of these tuba players) 1-3 for 3rd partial F. (bloke's days of owning those sorts of tubas and having to do those sorts of things are in the past.)
Just as with tubas, there are models of trombones whereby pitches behave themselves more nicely within positions and fewer micro-positions are required by their players. I've talked to quite a few trombone players about this stuff, and - to a man - they all agree that it's tremendously more easy to learn to play - and play - trombones whereby fewer pitches have to be favored within the positions.
When I talk about this stuff with them, it doesn't take them long to start talking about E-flat alto trombones and finding one that isn't as quirky, as it's so important to play those instruments in tune, and they're not as able to devote as much time to playing them.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 11:46 am
by cmccain
I'm actually in the opposite position as you, being primarily a trombone player who is filling in tuba for my local community band. Yes, sharp 6th partials and flat 5th partials are pretty much universal in trombones, but the degree to which they are sharp and flat varies based on the horn. If you're on a .504 small bore horn the tuning differences will typically be bigger than a .547. There are a couple common tricks to making things easier:
As said above, don't tune all the way in to the sleeves. To find a good first position, wedge your thumb between the slide handle and the sleeve. Should be a tight fit but not uncomfortable. That's about where most trombonists tune 1st position.
Always tune to Bb if you can. 3rd partial F will probably be a little in the same direction as 6th partial F, somewhere between 20%-50% as far from Bb first position. 5th partial D on a good horn will be perfectly tunable without slamming your face at this point.
If you want to break you lip adjustment habit, put on a tuning note and close your eyes. Then glissando your way chromatically from 4th parial Bb to 2nd partial Bb going down, stopping at every note when it's in tune, then 4th partial Bb up to 6th partial F (and all the way up 8th partial if you have the chops for it).The glissando and having your eyes closed will force you to act with your slide and not your face. This is a pretty common exercise for intermediate trombone students and it is *extremely* helpful in my experience, especially now that I'm going back and forth between them.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 2:19 pm
by bloke
cmccain wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2024 11:46 am
I'm actually in the opposite position as you, being primarily a trombone player who is filling in tuba for my local community band. Yes, sharp 6th partials and flat 5th partials are pretty much universal in trombones, but the degree to which they are sharp and flat varies based on the horn. If you're on a .504 small bore horn the tuning differences will typically be bigger than a .547. There are a couple common tricks to making things easier:
As said above, don't tune all the way in to the sleeves. To find a good first position, wedge your thumb between the slide handle and the sleeve. Should be a tight fit but not uncomfortable. That's about where most trombonists tune 1st position.
Always tune to Bb if you can. 3rd partial F will probably be a little in the same direction as 6th partial F, somewhere between 20%-50% as far from Bb first position. 5th partial D on a good horn will be perfectly tunable without slamming your face at this point.
If you want to break you lip adjustment habit, put on a tuning note and close your eyes. Then glissando your way chromatically from 4th parial Bb to 2nd partial Bb going down, stopping at every note when it's in tune, then 4th partial Bb up to 6th partial F (and all the way up 8th partial if you have the chops for it).The glissando and having your eyes closed will force you to act with your slide and not your face. This is a pretty common exercise for intermediate trombone students and it is *extremely* helpful in my experience, especially now that I'm going back and forth between them.
Many of you know John Mueller (retired DC Army Band principal euphonium). He's playing more trombone these days than euphonium, that broke his "lipping" habit on the euphonium, and - once he broke that habit - he wanted triggers on his main tuning slides on his euphoniums.
Interesting.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2024 4:16 am
by JESimmons
Trombone player and tuba honker here. About 10-years ago, I began tuning to the Ab at the top of the staff with the slide even with the bell. That gives me plenty of room to adjust 1st position as needed. I find great variations in horns - my 88h needs a good bit of correction but my Edwards bass needs very little.
Re: Trombone doubler question: flat 5th partials?
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2024 9:14 am
by bloke
JESimmons wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2024 4:16 am
Trombone player and tuba honker here. About 10-years ago, I began tuning to the Ab at the top of the staff with the slide even with the bell. That gives me plenty of room to adjust 1st position as needed. I find great variations in horns - my 88h needs a good bit of correction but my Edwards bass needs very little.
One of the squirliest Conn models was the 78H (an Elkhart .525" bore pro-line model). My understanding is that one of the G's has to be played about an inch in farther from fourth position compared to the other fourth position pitches.
(This was the default model for Memphis recording sessions into the 1990s.)
have repaired countless thousands of them... so I have messed with them a bunch once repaired, however deplorably.