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I work on this excerpt (rehearsal 11 - 14) - from time-to-time - as it requires so much energy, concentration, accurate tuning, timing, and a strategy for supplying air to blow past my lips.

I just realized that - playing it with a B-flat tuba (after all these years of "splitting the difference" (re: tuning, for some pitches) with C instruments (as well as a whole step lower - requiring more - with C tubas - cylindrical tubing be connected for quite a few pitches to be realized) that the only pitch with which I'm using the 4th valve is B-natural (there's a single C-natural below the staff, but I'm playing it 1-3 with my routine pull), and - therefore - the B-natural need not suffer in favor of anything else.

OK...Also - having rigged up a gadget whereby my 3rd circuit slide lengthens for the low F-sharp, and I can shorten it with my right wrist (keeping my hand on the #1 slide) for the next octave F# (as the 2-3 combination 4th partial overtone is flat when played on such a large percentage of brass instruments) is an advantage as well.

I have always found that (as much as air, phrasing, energy, timing, etc.) that TUNING (striving to play all the pitches in the excerpt "between the ditches") is the HIDDEN issue (affecting attacks and centering) that makes or breaks whether this excerpt and (at least, for me) makes or breaks whether I pull off making it into something that (when played with some talented trombonists) creates a really good musical/pictorial effect.

When I can check "tuning" off the list of issues with this excerpt, it becomes much closer to being fun (vs. a chore) and still possible for an old guy to play it, reflect, and (honestly, rather than attempting to patronize myself) be able to say to myself, "ya know...Were I someone listening to that, I suspect they would probably rate it as "good"...OK, now bloke...Let's see if we can play it better YET.

bloke "with apologies for yet another introspective post about playing, but - at least - I'm not posting about union issues, tablets, or shipping strategies, eh?...and - since this isn't a troll - y'all can troll me, in this thread."

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 3:32 pm I work on this excerpt (rehearsal 11 - 14) - from time-to-time - as it requires so much energy, concentration, accurate tuning, timing, and a strategy for supplying air to blow past my lips.

I just realized that - playing it with a B-flat tuba (after all these years of "splitting the difference" (re: tuning, for some pitches) with C instruments (as well as a whole step lower - requiring more - with C tubas - cylindrical tubing be connected for quite a few pitches to be realized) that the only pitch with which I'm using the 4th valve is B-natural (there's a single C-natural below the staff, but I'm playing it 1-3 with my routine pull), and - therefore - the B-natural need not suffer in favor of anything else.

What do you use for the low E? 1-2-3, or 2-3-5?

It has always seemed to me that this excerpt would be easier a whole step higher on CC tuba, or played as written on BBb. I just haven't had a BBb to play in so long I haven't ever tried it. But the issue (for me) has always been that the low E never slots on any CC tuba I've ever had. And I've had good ones (2155, RM 5/4, PT6). But the low F# is always a good note.

This is also one of those excerpts that had I been a more mature player 20 years ago, I would have auditioned on better. It's hard enough that I wanted to be constantly working on it. What I should have done was put it down for a year, work on the Snedecore book. Take some Blazevich down an octave. Get really really fluid in the pedal register. And just....be a player with a very very good low end who then picks up this one particular excerpt. I spent a long time doing it ass-backwards, working on the excerpt to improve my low playing, and in retrospect it was self-defeating.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 5:57 pm I spent a long time doing it ass-backwards, working on the excerpt to improve my low playing, and in retrospect it was self-defeating.

My teacher in college actually adapted this excerpt to be a low range exercise, transposing the opening lick down to Eb and then down to D.

low E is 5-2-3
B natural is 2-4
C is 1-3 (pull 1, per routine with this instrument)

again: BB-flat is a longer bugle, but (with many pitches) one is blowing through less pipe.

"Just having a tuba that plays most of the pitches in this excerpt easily in tune" isn't magical, but (again) it gets me much farther down the road much sooner.

Adrenaline (YET remaining focused) is really helpful in regards to playing this one.
"Going for a brisk five-minute walk" is probably better (prior to playing this) than going through some "daily routine" (which so many players reportedly do). ...In a performance of this, I suspect a music director would become pretty annoyed with a tuba player doing "long tones" during Valle Giulia.

You two (who've posted in response, thus far) may recall that I've BOTH monkeyed around with a B extension for my (formerly-owned) C tuba as well as an A extension for THIS (Miraphone 98) tuba. Having played (and actually WORKED ON, not just "played through once or twice") this excerpt with C, B, B-flat, and A instruments, I'm convinced that (at least, with this particular B-flat tuba) that B-flat is the best of the four. (yeah...Many will chuckle at those experiments, but only because they haven't done them...and/or didn't have access to being able to conduct those experiments...Hey: The B tuba worked GREAT - best of the four lengths - with "Ride of the Valkyries"...but - well - duh.),,,

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:07 pm

You two (who've posted in response, thus far) may recall that I've BOTH monkeyed around with a B extension for my (formerly-owned) C tuba as well as an A extension for THIS (Miraphone 98) tuba. Having played (and actually WORKED ON, not just "played through once or twice") this excerpt with C, B, B-flat, and A instruments, I'm convinced that (at least, with this particular B-flat tuba) that B-flat is the best of the four. (yeah...Many will chuckle at those experiments, but only because they haven't done them...and/or didn't have access to being able to conduct those experiments.)

I thought the B tuba was a fantastic idea. I guess I missed the A tuba. But given the symphonic rep, I can definitely see the usefulness.

Re adrenaline - That's always been my issue. I get worked up and start playing worked up. I struggle to get emotionally involved in a piece and separate that from my physical input. There are times (the recapitulation of the opening theme from Mvt I in Mvt 4 of Tchaikovsky's 4th, for example), where my instinct is to put the horn down and start shouting. No one has ever accusing me of being boring or emotionless in my playing. Plenty of people have accused me of being inaccurate or overly enthusiastic.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:24 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:07 pm

You two (who've posted in response, thus far) may recall that I've BOTH monkeyed around with a B extension for my (formerly-owned) C tuba as well as an A extension for THIS (Miraphone 98) tuba. Having played (and actually WORKED ON, not just "played through once or twice") this excerpt with C, B, B-flat, and A instruments, I'm convinced that (at least, with this particular B-flat tuba) that B-flat is the best of the four. (yeah...Many will chuckle at those experiments, but only because they haven't done them...and/or didn't have access to being able to conduct those experiments.)

I thought the B tuba was a fantastic idea. I guess I missed the A tuba. But given the symphonic rep, I can definitely see the usefulness.

Re adrenaline - That's always been my issue. I get worked up and start playing worked up. I struggle to get emotionally involved in a piece and separate that from my physical input. There are times (the recapitulation of the opening theme from Mvt I in Mvt 4 of Tchaikovsky's 4th, for example), where my instinct is to put the horn down and start shouting. No one has ever accusing me of being boring or emotionless in my playing. Plenty of people have accused me of being inaccurate or overly enthusiastic.

yeah...We figure skate with our lips. adrenaline YET focus.
"reckless abandon" - We've all seen figure skaters get caught up in that as well, yes?

Thanks for being willing to respond/post about PLAYING, btw.

This excerpt is not so hard on a tuba in A.

the elephant wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:28 pm This excerpt is not so hard on a tuba in A.

I ran it that way for several days. It wasn't any better than B flat.

It might seem that playing a key of E oompah endlessly would work out just fine with a tuba pitched in A - and it does as far as that goes, but all the rest of it is in every key imaginable, so not so much. (We old guitar players never get over thinking like a guitar player, and we always think about grabbing a capo.)

The bits and pieces that I stuck together as Tinker Toys to drop the instrument to A are some that you asked for - if they were available. The reason I never offered them to you is because they have some red rot in them. They're good enough to screw around with, but not good enough to give to somebody as a gift.

Do youse guys who actually play this excerpt play that one F# (that seems like it should be down an octave) down an octave from written, or as written?

This is something that I used to practice to play loud, and to play low. My issue was always sustaining a solid f/ff volume throughout and not "muscling through" sustained pitches.

I'll have to figure out the spot to which you are referring for certain.
I always play the beginning part (other than the opening motif( without accents and play all those pitches as long as I can make them. I consider that stuff background, and I'm sure that most anyone else who has studied this excerpt does as well.
I try to make a distinction (when all the jazz starts) in the type of sound that I'm making and slightly step up the volume level, but I still try to make it as linear as I can manage - rather than punchy and pointillistic.
There's a spot where either the composer (or those two editors - back around 1960) simplify the tuba part (compared to the trombones) and take a couple of hitches up an octave prior to a jump down yet another low E. It occurs at the page turn. I would just as soon play it the way the editors wrote it (as printed), because that's what an audition committee would be looking at. Listening to recordings of performances, everything that's going on pretty much sounds like a ten-ring circus (as intended), though it does sound pretty cool when Gene does it the other way on his old CD that he made.

Something else that I would like to do is to learn this on my smaller Holton B-flat, and - once I feel comfortable playing all the passages on that tuba, and don't have to concentrate so much on playing it and can more listen to myself, I'd like to see what I think of the way it sounds (with a little bit more front on everything and a little bit more clarity). Clarity is one of the things that this excerpt can certainly use. (Did I imagine this, or did I see a video of Mr. Baer and the New York players with him playing this excerpt on a non-gigantic tuba?)

Thanks, yes, I think it's an A-F# that are an octave too high. Been quite a while since I've looked at it. You answered my question.

arpthark wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:45 am Thanks, yes, I think it's an A-F# that are an octave too high. Been quite a while since I've looked at it. You answered my question.

It might possibly (??) be four 16th notes in the trombones which descend as follows: D C, A, F-sharp, and then the low E.

I have no idea what they changed or did, I'm not a scholar, and I I'm not interesting in getting access to the original score, but several decades ago a pair of people by the last names of Nieweg and Bradburd edited the parts.

He was the Philadelphia Orchestra librarian, and they apparently also teamed up on editing other parts of other orchestral works. I believe they edited the Nabucco overture and several other works.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:48 am It might possibly (??) be four 16th notes in the trombones which descend as follows: D C, A, F-sharp, and then the low E.

the last 16th note before rehearsal 13 is an F natural- I checked.
You made me question myself for a minute there- "have I been playing a wrong note there for 35 years???" That would explain some things, but no.

In an audition, I suppose you would be forced to play those as written but in performance its so much more effective (and easier?) down an octave, or better yet, play all four 16ths down an octave from the 3rd trombone.

Wade, I have fond memories of working on this excerpt with you back in the day.

You're right, it is an F natural. I just looked at the score. Bad editing, IMO. The tuba part could just double the second basson and drop the octave at the A instead of going back up. It's not as if other parts of this excerpt aren't especially athletic.

@peteedwards

Yes. F natural. Apologies !!!!

LOL. Were I to play it that way (8ve lower), that would be one pitch where by the 4th circuit would be set for the wrong length ( referring back to setting my fourth slide for 2-4 B natural).

arpthark wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:28 am You're right, it is an F natural. I just looked at the score. Bad editing, IMO. The tuba part could just double the second basson and drop the octave at the A instead of going back up. It's not as if other parts of this excerpt aren't especially athletic.

Also I think the trill marked below was meant for the tuba!

peteedwards wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:36 am

arpthark wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:28 am You're right, it is an F natural. I just looked at the score. Bad editing, IMO. The tuba part could just double the second basson and drop the octave at the A instead of going back up. It's not as if other parts of this excerpt aren't especially athletic.

Also I think the trill marked below was meant for the tuba!

That would be a roll in the timpani part!

This demonstrates how much of an incredible sidebar in a thread can be created by typing one wrong character in one post.