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What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:15 pm
by Doc
If you could play any EEb (one that you could easily find and purchase), what would it be and what attributes make that model your best choice?
Comments on rare Yorks, frankenyorks, ancient Booseys, and other old gems that are hard to find are certainly welcome, but I'm thinking more of what might be more readily available to a current shopper. No, I'm not currently on the hunt, but I am always thinking about it.
Thanks!
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:30 pm
by iiipopes
Ask bloke about the Besson Eb he has that he really likes and why.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:32 pm
by Doc
iiipopes wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:30 pm
Ask bloke about the Besson Eb he has that he really likes and why.
I've played it. I definitely understand!
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:33 pm
by bloke
You know what I would immediately buy (new) - were it that I didn't have what I have.
~
remarkable sound/intonation/workmanship for round-up-able money ~
Otherwise, many of the Edgware Rd. Sovereigns play nicely, but those are all "used", and you're seeking comments re: "new".
I've not played any of the $13,000 German-made knock-offs of the Edgware Rd. instruments...other than the front-action compensating one.
It's OK...but - to make the compensating fingering pattern awkward (having to anchor the pinky finger), simply for the sake of making something front-action - the trade-off isn't worth it, to me...and (frankly) I believe the best of the 3+1's play better.
I've not played a 4+1 (non-comp) that I really liked. I suppose Willson is the best, but the (lack of...??) quality of sound of those does nothing for me.
The very best of the century-old American "monsters" are the Yorks...
Most all of those (all makes) feature flat 2nd and 8th partials, and the York ones seem to be the least bad about those things.
The worst of the century-old American "monsters" (in my view) are the Bueschers, due to completely wild intonation...
...and sorry, Buescher owners, if I've triggered any of you.
(I've bought those instruments to harvest their bells, bottom bows, and genuine Buescher bracing and water keys.)
Truth be told, most all of the 3+1 comp's feature the very same (2nd & 8th) intonation quirks, but only a very small amount, compared to most of the old American "monsters".
post script:
I'm not seeing any 15" bell 3+1 comp. E-flat instruments offered "new", but I'm fairly sure that Yamaha's YEB-321 bell is a dead-ringer for the vintage Edgware 15" bells, and (though they take MONTHS to get from Japan, and aren't inexpensive) those 15" 321 bells are
reasonably-priced, and would probably fit right on most all shipped-new 19-inch bell comp. E-flats (were someone seeking - what I would consider to be - a truly authentic - yet all NEW parts - brass band E-flat tuba).
To me, the 19" bell instruments are useful, but they are USEFUL in that they are "fake" contrabass tubas (round "contrabass sound", but - being shorter - easier to execute gymnastic passages, as are encountered in no-holds-barred quintet music). The few 17" bell instruments are considerably less (well...) woofy, but (to me, anyway) the vintage 15" bell compensating E-flats are the only ones that actually offer a BASS tuba type of resonance.
bloke "whose now made enough money - playing E-flat tubas - to non-apologetically express opinions...
maybe...??"
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:57 pm
by Doc
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:33 pm
You know what I would immediately buy (new) - were it that I didn't have what I have.
Otherwise, many of the Edgware Rd. Sovereigns play nicely, but those are all "used", and you're seeking comments re: "new".
I've not played any of the $13,000 German-made knock-offs of the Edgware Rd. instruments...other than the front-action compensating one.
It's OK...but - to make the compensating fingering pattern awkward (having to anchor the pinky finger), simply for the sake of making something front-action - the trade-off isn't worth it, to me...and (frankly) I believe the best of the 3+1's play better.
I've not played a 4+1 (non-comp) that I really liked. I suppose Willson is the best, but the (lack of...??) quality of sound of those does nothing for me.
post script:
I'm not seeing any 15" bell 3+1 instruments offered "new", but I'm fairly sure that Yamaha's YEB-321 bell is a dead-ringer for the vintage Edgware 15" bells, and (though they take MONTHS to get from Japan, and aren't inexpensive) they are
reasonably-priced, and would probably fit right on most all shipped-new 19-inch bell comp. E-flats (were someone seeking - what I would consider to be - a truly authentic brass band E-flat tuba).
A used 15" 3+1 would get immediate consideration, as would an EEb like yours, but since those don't show up all that often, I have to include later models that may be more readily available. I have no interest in spending the kind of cash that some new EEb's cost. I've tested numerous Willson 3400's, and I liked them just fine. I've tested a couple of PT22's, and I liked them just fine. I tested that silver JP 377 earlier this year at TMEA, and really liked it (I'm probably a moron for not getting it at the price offered). Yes, the low range is maybe not as wide open as some of the front action models, but it wasn't a problem. The tuba was easy to play and offered good intonation - what's not to love? And compensating fingerings do not bother me at all. In fact, they seem to make sense. And it had that signature sound that I associate with British tuba playing (which I happen to like very much). My wife was disappointed I didn't get it. She had the checkbook out and ready.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:00 pm
by LeMark
WIllson 3400s
Miraphone Norwegian Star (is that an EEb or just an Eb?)
Besson 984
and the Packer 377 if you don't mind 3+1
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:08 pm
by Doc
LeMark wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:00 pm
WIllson 3400s
Miraphone Norwegian Star (is that an EEb or just an Eb?)
Besson 984
and the Packer 377 if you don't mind 3+1
I forgot to mention in my previous post that I have tried the Norwegian Star. It played like a Miraphone should play - great sound, response, and good intonation.
I've also played the 983, but it didn't speak to me at the time as much as I'd hoped.
And I do not mind 3+1comp fingerings. As long as I can reach far enough around all my fat to push the 4th valve.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:12 pm
by LeMark
The 983 didn't speak to me either. But the 984 screamed BUY ME!
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:14 pm
by Doc
LeMark wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:12 pm
The 983 didn't speak to me either. But the 984 screamed BUY ME!
Where did you try one?
They look like a 2250 with a smaller bell. Does it play better than one?
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:22 pm
by LeMark
ITEC 2016 in knoxville. I still think the Willson won that shootout, but the changes they made for the 984 were a major improvement. It's more than just a different bell
plus, the Besson didn't feel like an elephant was sitting on my lap
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:27 pm
by Doc
LeMark wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:22 pm
ITEC 2016 in knoxville. I still think the Willson won that shootout, but the changes they made for the 984 were a major improvement. It's more than just a different bell
plus, the Besson didn't feel like an elephant was sitting on my lap
Did you compare it to the 3400 or the compact model?
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:28 pm
by LeMark
the compact model, it was amazing. That and Carl's frankentuba are with a doubt the two best large Eb tubas I've ever played
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:42 pm
by Doc
LeMark wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:28 pm
the compact model, it was amazing. That and Carl's frankentuba are with a doubt the two best large Eb tubas I've ever played
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:36 pm
by Mikelynch
I don't play Eb, though there are many times I have wished that I did (though when i tried, a 4th set of fingerings just was not happening for me). But when I have played the Miraphone Ambassador 3+1 Ebs (possibly no longer made--not sure) I found myself considering the possibility more seriously than at any other times in my life.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:38 pm
by bloke
Mikelynch wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:36 pm
I don't play Eb, though there are many times I have wished that I did (though when i tried, a 4th set of fingerings just was not happening for me). But when I have played the Miraphone Ambassador 3+1 Ebs (possibly no longer made--not sure) I found myself considering the possibility more seriously than at any other times in my life.
Joe Murphy bought one of those - years ago...and (without asking me) had Miraphone ship an F tuba bell to my shop (for me to swap out with the Ambassador bell).
He eventually called and asked if the bell arrived, to which I responded..."yes...??"
He showed up with his Ambassador, and I asked him to give me a hand.
"Support the instrument, while I remove the bell..."
...so he grabbed the flopping-loose mouthpipe, and folded it.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:40 pm
by marccromme
The 984 is really nice , so are the two MW Eb tubas.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:28 pm
by bloke
I should not have made a blanket statement about the non-comp. 5-valve E-flats (with the exception of Willson).
The Miraphone 5-valve non-comps (in my estimation) are very nice. I recall playing an internet friend's...the larger model (model name...??)
It played very well for me.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:29 pm
by tobysima`
Are there any bore qualities that ensures the horn will play in tune on a comp. Eb? Is 0.69" the magic number? Or is there something better?
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:47 pm
by Doc
Oedipoes wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:34 pm
That's when the old Besson comes in:
1980's vintage pre-sovereign factory original 19" bell, Fletcher-cut and straight large bore leadpipe installed by MrTuba.
Probably the best allround tuba you can get...
If something like that miraculously became available, that would get my attention.
Re: What is the Best EEb?
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:48 pm
by tobysima`
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:33 pm
You know what I would immediately buy (new) - were it that I didn't have what I have.
~
remarkable sound/intonation/workmanship for round-up-able money ~
Otherwise, many of the Edgware Rd. Sovereigns play nicely, but those are all "used", and you're seeking comments re: "new".
I've not played any of the $13,000 German-made knock-offs of the Edgware Rd. instruments...other than the front-action compensating one.
It's OK...but - to make the compensating fingering pattern awkward (having to anchor the pinky finger), simply for the sake of making something front-action - the trade-off isn't worth it, to me...and (frankly) I believe the best of the 3+1's play better.
I've not played a 4+1 (non-comp) that I really liked. I suppose Willson is the best, but the (lack of...??) quality of sound of those does nothing for me.
The very best of the century-old American "monsters" are the Yorks...
Most all of those (all makes) feature flat 2nd and 8th partials, and the York ones seem to be the least bad about those things.
The worst of the century-old American "monsters" (in my view) are the Bueschers, due to completely wild intonation...
...and sorry, Buescher owners, if I've triggered any of you.
(I've bought those instruments to harvest their bells, bottom bows, and genuine Buescher bracing and water keys.)
Truth be told, most all of the 3+1 comp's feature the very same (2nd & 8th) intonation quirks, but only a very small amount, compared to most of the old American "monsters".
post script:
I'm not seeing any 15" bell 3+1 comp. E-flat instruments offered "new", but I'm fairly sure that Yamaha's YEB-321 bell is a dead-ringer for the vintage Edgware 15" bells, and (though they take MONTHS to get from Japan, and aren't inexpensive) those 15" 321 bells are
reasonably-priced, and would probably fit right on most all shipped-new 19-inch bell comp. E-flats (were someone seeking - what I would consider to be - a truly authentic - yet all NEW parts - brass band E-flat tuba).
To me, the 19" bell instruments are useful, but they are USEFUL in that they are "fake" contrabass tubas (round "contrabass sound", but - being shorter - easier to execute gymnastic passages, as are encountered in no-holds-barred quintet music). The few 17" bell instruments are considerably less (well...) woofy, but (to me, anyway) the vintage 15" bell compensating E-flats are the only ones that actually offer a BASS tuba type of resonance.
bloke "whose now made enough money - playing E-flat tubas - to non-apologetically express opinions...
maybe...??"
Any chance on switching an Eb bell for one of the Mack 15" bells?