TubaForum.net

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:15 pm**

I know that Vienna uses the Weiner tuba (unless they changed), Britain uses Eb for almost everything, with C when needed (I think), America uses CC and F when needed, and Germany uses F and Bb when needed (I think). What does the rest of the world use when they pick up their tuba?

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:27 pm**

In Denmark classical musicians mostly play C and F, brass band amateurs Eb and Bb, a few F and Bb. I have yet not met any person playing Eb and C. All use standard british style Euph, if need be. Never have seen a Alexander 151 or similar here.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:33 pm**

marccromme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:27 pm In Denmark classical musicians mostly play C and F, brass band amateurs Eb and Bb, a few F and Bb. I have yet not met any person playing Eb and C. All use standard british style Euph, if need be. Never have seen a Alexander 151 or similar here.

In the orchestra, is the contrabass or bass tuba used more?

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:48 pm**

In the Netherlands the amateurs mostly play Eb and Bb. Even the music they play (in Fanfare and wind band) is transposed so you don't have to learn new fingerings when switching instruments.
There are however a couple of amateurs who play an C or an F tuba.
In orchestra (when the player is an amateur) it is mostly a Eb, because there are not much players who have more than one horn.

The pro's use whatever the seem fit for the occasion. A friend of mine plays in a army band and has played on a Bb,C,Eb and F.

Greetings from one of the few amateurs in the Netherlands with a C and F.

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:14 pm**

tobysima` wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:33 pm In the orchestra, is the contrabass or bass tuba used more?

Depends on what fits the repertoire best. Professionals have almost always multiple instruments to choose from. Us amateurs are more bound to the one tuba we have, or have borrowed from the band.

My MW 2141 Eb 5 valve front action is rather special here, it was played professionally in the royal orchestra before it found way to me, playing it in an English style brass band. It was or is an outsider in both worlds. DK brass band players use mostly Sovereign or Yamaha 4 valve compensated TA tubas. But rotary F and Bb tubas are used sometimes too.

The essence is, neither the director nor the audience cares, as far as you play well and with proper taste.

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:21 pm**

marccromme wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:14 pm The essence is, neither the director nor the audience cares, as far as you play well and with proper taste.

I've heard some stories about "What the hell is that thing?!" from conductors in orchestras, so I just assumed most places had their customs.

Posted: **Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:52 am**

The Eb and Bb is the most common among amateur musicians in Norway, I guess. I play a Cc myself, but I am a rare species. In the professional bands I guess it's a mixture between Cc and Bb.

Posted: **Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:02 am**

Yes, most places have customs, but individual exceptions abound.

In Germany, the custom was an F tuba as the default orchestral instrument, and a large Bb tuba when a contrabass part is called for. The amateurs I’ve occasionally seen play Bb tubas.

In France, the old custom was a euphonium-sized tenor tuba in C with six valves. Mel Culbertson ended that custom, and I suspect the C contrabass is the default now.

In the UK, the custom for orchestras was a Barlow F tuba, small, and often uncompensated with five valves (3 top, 2 side). John Fletcher shifted that to a compensating Eb, but switched to a very large C Holton as needed. George Wall was pictured in the 70’splaying an Alexander 164.

But pros of sufficient stature go their own way and people follow them, establishing new customs. It used to be that orchestra conductors demanded specific instruments, but that seems rather rare now, at least beyond discussing the general sound if he doesn’t like what he hears.

The common custom in the US is a C contrabass as the default pro instrument, with an F as the default bass tuba. Bb contrabass tubas are the default amateur tuba. Again, exceptions abound.

Brass bands are British-inspired, and the standard instruments are Bb and Eb tubas, using transposed music. I think the Netherlands is the only place I’ve heard or transposed music outside of the British brass band movement.

There are traditions for valve arrangements, too. The Germanic countries followed the Graslitz tradition, using front-action rotary valves as descended from Berlinerpumpen. The French and British share a tradition of using top-action valves with right-facing bells. The valves are pistons, from the original Perinet design. Americans did that until Helleberg popularized rotary tubas, and the child of that marriage was the front-action piston tuba.

You should try to find a copy of Clifford Bevan’s book The Tuba Family. A first edition of that came out in the 70’s, and a second edition 10 or 15 years ago. Either would serve.

Rick “tradition and current practice don’t always align” Denney

Posted: **Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:14 am**

“George Wall was pictured in the 70’splaying an Alexander 164.”

I was fortunate to be taught by George during the 1980’s when he was playing at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden. Due to the way the pit was set up he would routinely use Mirafone F and CCs as needed in order for the bell to face outwards under the lip of the pit. A 3+1 compensator would have just hit the back wall... so although there are loose national preferences (& the UK is still strongly dominated by the Besson Sovereign EEb) there are, as noted above, always exceptions.

Posted: **Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:33 pm**

I'm still undecided about the advantage, apart from the fact that my mind hears pitches in Bb...
But moving everything up an octave so that 90% of the notes are into the staff makes a lot of sense to me for readability...
In the end, it's just how you learn it I guess...

It has it's advantages as disadvantages. The biggest advantage is that you don't have to learn new fingerings when changing a instrument.
The disadvantage is that when you see a noted c there will sound a b flat. When you change instrument to Eb and you see a c your brain expects that there will be a sound like b flat, only there will sound a e flat. You have to adjust intonation to that, or have the infamous kicks.

Another advantage of concert pitch is that you can also substitute for the stringbas.
The biggest disadvantage (in the Netherlands and Belgium) is that when you substitute at a fanfare or wind orchestra they don't always have the C tuba parts, so you need to be handy in transposing.

The last advantage of concert pitch is that you can also play in a symfonie orchestra. Those parts are much higher than normal wind band literature and it would mean that there are to many ledger lines above staff.

Greetings from the neighbours.

Posted: **Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:40 pm**

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:02 am Yes, most places have customs, but individual exceptions abound.

In Germany, the custom was an F tuba as the default orchestral instrument, and a large Bb tuba when a contrabass part is called for. The amateurs I’ve occasionally seen play Bb tubas.

In France, the old custom was a euphonium-sized tenor tuba in C with six valves. Mel Culbertson ended that custom, and I suspect the C contrabass is the default now.

In the UK, the custom for orchestras was a Barlow F tuba, small, and often uncompensated with five valves (3 top, 2 side). John Fletcher shifted that to a compensating Eb, but switched to a very large C Holton as needed. George Wall was pictured in the 70’splaying an Alexander 164.

But pros of sufficient stature go their own way and people follow them, establishing new customs. It used to be that orchestra conductors demanded specific instruments, but that seems rather rare now, at least beyond discussing the general sound if he doesn’t like what he hears.

The common custom in the US is a C contrabass as the default pro instrument, with an F as the default bass tuba. Bb contrabass tubas are the default amateur tuba. Again, exceptions abound.

Brass bands are British-inspired, and the standard instruments are Bb and Eb tubas, using transposed music. I think the Netherlands is the only place I’ve heard or transposed music outside of the British brass band movement.

There are traditions for valve arrangements, too. The Germanic countries followed the Graslitz tradition, using front-action rotary valves as descended from Berlinerpumpen. The French and British share a tradition of using top-action valves with right-facing bells. The valves are pistons, from the original Perinet design. Americans did that until Helleberg popularized rotary tubas, and the child of that marriage was the front-action piston tuba.

You should try to find a copy of Clifford Bevan’s book The Tuba Family. A first edition of that came out in the 70’s, and a second edition 10 or 15 years ago. Either would serve.

Rick “tradition and current practice don’t always align” Denney

Thank you so much! So now people just use what sounds best to them? I'm surprised more people don't take the Bobo approach - a bunch of tubas in a bunch of keys. Useful in my opinion, especially for stuff like Berlioz and Brahms!

Posted: **Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:47 am**

The Arnold Jacobs approach is much cheaper: one tuba and a bunch of mouthpieces...

Posted: **Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:50 pm**

In Australia we were, for a long time, taught Eb tuba at school. This was great as Brass Bands are widespread. Now a much higher percentage are being taught Bb, much to the dismay of many. Eb seems like a much better ‘one tuba.’ Lighter, able to play solos more nimble whilst supporting a band.

As amateurs Eb was (still is?) most popular, with Bb a distant second mainly played by Brass Band players who may not be able to play Bass clef on BBb tuba (myself included

). These days many of the very good amateurs seem to have a CC tuba.

As the world became smaller CC and F tubas became the must have for any aspiring pro. Although a number of pro and conservatory trained players stuck to Eb as their bass tuba.

So for a long time we were much like the Brits, but the C and Bb tuba have become more prevalent. F tuba remains a more specialist instrument for the conservatory trained.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 pm**

Ricardo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:50 pm In Australia we were, for a long time, taught Eb tuba at school. This was great as Brass Bands are widespread. Now a much higher percentage are being taught Bb, much to the dismay of many. Eb seems like a much better ‘one tuba.’ Lighter, able to play solos more nimble whilst supporting a band.

As amateurs Eb was (still is?) most popular, with Bb a distant second mainly played by Brass Band players who may not be able to play Bass clef on BBb tuba (myself included ). These days many of the very good amateurs seem to have a CC tuba.

As the world became smaller CC and F tubas became the must have for any aspiring pro. Although a number of pro and conservatory trained players stuck to Eb as their bass tuba.

So for a long time we were much like the Brits, but the C and Bb tuba have become more prevalent. F tuba remains a more specialist instrument for the conservatory trained.

What is the Eb tuba of choice for most players?

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:04 pm**

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 pm What is the Eb tuba of choice for most players?

I'd assume a comp. Eb, Fletcher set that trend, and on Instagram I've seen plenty of people in England playing them.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:59 pm**

tobysima` wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:04 pm
Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 pm What is the Eb tuba of choice for most players?
I'd assume a comp. Eb, Fletcher set that trend, and on Instagram I've seen plenty of people in England playing them.

That’s my guess, but since @Ricardo is here, maybe he can give us popular brands and models.

Doc (assuming it’s the typical Eb comp examples)

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:44 am**

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:59 pm
tobysima` wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:04 pm
Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 pm What is the Eb tuba of choice for most players?
I'd assume a comp. Eb, Fletcher set that trend, and on Instagram I've seen plenty of people in England playing them.
That’s my guess, but since @Ricardo is here, maybe he can give us popular brands and models.

Doc (assuming it’s the typical Eb comp examples)

Typically in the UK (& much of the British Brass Band inspired areas), it will likely be the Besson Sovereign 982 as the default instrument. If you turn up with anything else to a brass band rehearsal, you will definitely get looked at twice in my experience...particularly anything front actioned... The "blend" of the Bass section is what judges apparently look for and thus different instruments apparently interfere with this (& the visual look!).

I'm not personally a fan as a) the default 19" bell is a bit unfocused, b) the 4th valve lower end can be a bit stuffy (hence my current choices in my sig block) and c) there were some historic problems with build quality in the 1990's when I was in the market for one...

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:16 pm**

Fivevalves wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:44 am Typically in the UK (& much of the British Brass Band inspired areas), it will likely be the Besson Sovereign 982 as the default instrument. If you turn up with anything else to a brass band rehearsal, you will definitely get looked at twice in my experience...particularly anything front actioned... The "blend" of the Bass section is what judges apparently look for and thus different instruments apparently interfere with this (& the visual look!).

I'm not personally a fan as a) the default 19" bell is a bit unfocused, b) the 4th valve lower end can be a bit stuffy (hence my current choices in my sig block) and c) there were some historic problems with build quality in the 1990's when I was in the market for one...

I'd assume something like the Wessex Cavalry with a bell somewhere in the 15"-16" range would be optimal for bass tuba literature, but I'm not British, so I have no idea.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:17 pm**

This is interesting.

I remember hearing the International Brass Conference event where John Fletcher was a guest speaker. During the conversation he spoke about how he played all different keys. He talked about his Rudy BBb (he also had a Rudy 5/4 CC), his Holton, his Eb (at the time he was sponsored by Boosey & Hawkes and him speaking at the event was through their sponsorship), and even playing F for a few things.

Some of the big pros in the US have gone to playing BBb on some specific repertoire (mostly the German and Russian stuff like Bruckner, Wagner, Prokofiev, and Shostakovich) when more commonly CC was played. Don't typically hear about someone playing Eb though. Bass tuba is nearly always F.

Personally, I use Eb for my bass tuba stuff because I hadn't found an F I particularly liked and worked as well. The closest I found was the JP piston F and Bloke's frankentuba. Both were mighty fine instruments but neither provided enough of an argument to me to go "yep, I need to put my Boosey on the market."

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:47 am**

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