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Americanized (faster tempo) performance

I am puzzled by the American version being so much faster than the British version. It's almost disrespectful. The British have had military bands for eons and slavishly adhere to tradition. I have played this march several times in U.S. military and civilian bands, and we always played the march at approximately 104 bpm. The Illini band and their faster tempo sound really good, but their decision to depart from British tradition needs explanation. It's like a British band playing Sousa marches at 104 bpm.

Ace

Our high school band director was not ultra-schooled in British march traditions - and we didn't play it at that slowest tempo, but we DID play it slowER than we played other marches.

After all, we played it a FOOTBALL games...and were supposed to be supplying "pep".

Ace wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:11 pm I am puzzled by the American version being so much faster than the British version. It's almost disrespectful. The British have had military bands for eons and slavishly adhere to tradition. I have played this march several times in U.S. military and civilian bands, and we always played the march at approximately 104 bpm. The Illini band and their faster tempo sound really good, but their decision to depart from British tradition needs explanation. It's like a British band playing Sousa marches at 104 bpm.

Ace

We played this in high school many times, and we played it at the proper (British) tempo. I don't care for it at a faster tempo, as it loses its character (and aren't style and character part of the idea?).

We were lucky, of course, as our band director was a retired tuba player from the band at the Air Force Academy and was a march nut and passionate Sousa aficionado - we got to play tons of marches, including a large variety of Sousa marches, some of Sousa's other music, and he insisted it all be played in the original/correct style as much as we were able. And we didn't play much modern "made for band/not the best music" compositions. And he was thrilled when he came there and learned there was a tradition of playing The Stars and Stripes Forever on the spring concert every year. I don't know if that trend continues, but it seems many modern band directors poo poo marches in general. Maybe they could read the scores and see how every aspect of playing an instrument can be taught through marches, particularly Sousa marches. Maybe they should hearken to the words of Frederick Fennell, if they even know who he is. But, I digress...

We never "Americanized" a British march. We also played Alte Kameraden often, and it was always played at the proper tempo with stylized rhythm (as much as kids can do), and only added the popular rubato when playing outdoors for local events. I realized as I got older that we got an education in style that many others did not. I don't see much of that happening today, but hopefully I'm wrong.

A number of years ago, I was a member of the only BBB in our area (lots of excellent players, tons of fun). The only time I ever cringed was when we played Colonel Bogey March at 130+bpm.

Maybe some band directors will begin programming British Eighth again. It's worthy. Thanks for the post!

Ace wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:11 pm I am puzzled by the American version being so much faster than the British version. It's almost disrespectful. The British have had military bands for eons and slavishly adhere to tradition. I have played this march several times in U.S. military and civilian bands, and we always played the march at approximately 104 bpm. The Illini band and their faster tempo sound really good, but their decision to depart from British tradition needs explanation. It's like a British band playing Sousa marches at 104 bpm.

Ace

Oh my. My face is red. I just clocked out the tempi on these two performances. The British version was 104 bpm. The Illini version came in at 108 bpm. With this new information, my post above sounds stuffy. Just proves the point that before expressing strong opinions, verify, verify, verify.

Ace

Ace wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:34 pm

Ace wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:11 pm I am puzzled by the American version being so much faster than the British version. It's almost disrespectful. The British have had military bands for eons and slavishly adhere to tradition. I have played this march several times in U.S. military and civilian bands, and we always played the march at approximately 104 bpm. The Illini band and their faster tempo sound really good, but their decision to depart from British tradition needs explanation. It's like a British band playing Sousa marches at 104 bpm.

Ace

Oh my. My face is red. I just clocked out the tempi on these two performances. The British version was 104 bpm. The Illini version came in at 108 bpm. With this new information, my post above sounds stuffy. Just proves the point that before expressing strong opinions, verify, verify, verify.

Ace

No need to feel flush. Sometimes the slightest variance makes a big difference in feel and style.

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:29 pm I don't know if that trend continues, but it seems many modern band directors poo poo marches in general. Maybe they could read the scores and see how every aspect of playing an instrument can be taught through marches, particularly Sousa marches. Maybe they should hearken to the words of Frederick Fennell, if they even know who he is. But, I digress...

I've noticed this. Especially in the elitist northeast Boston! Marches are part of the history of wind bands. Nothing like starting your program off with a march, or ending with one as a nod to the past. I frequently butted the anti-march trend when I directed a community band. I also programmed this after I heard it performed by the all district band in our area. A delightful march! That trio...

lost wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:13 pm

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:29 pm I don't know if that trend continues, but it seems many modern band directors poo poo marches in general. Maybe they could read the scores and see how every aspect of playing an instrument can be taught through marches, particularly Sousa marches. Maybe they should hearken to the words of Frederick Fennell, if they even know who he is. But, I digress...

I've noticed this. Especially in the elitist northeast Boston! Marches are part of the history of wind bands. Nothing like starting your program off with a march, or ending with one as a nod to the past. I frequently butted the anti-march trend when I directed a community band. I also programmed this after I heard it performed by the all district band in our area. A delightful march! That trio...

The most fun that I ever had playing in a band concert was under Mr. Fennell‘s baton in 1979 at a concert which (after his gracious words) was concluded with a Fillmore march, which typically are the opposite of British marches, in that they are borderline circus marches (quick).
That performance was appropriately quick, and was recorded. It’s been put on YouTube by someone, and I’ve linked it here before…

Wonderful old march. I've conducted it at the American tempo and marched to it in high school at a slower 108-110 when we and almost everyone else in Texas marched military 6-to-5 style in the 1960s. Of course, back then we marched mainly to the Trios of all those old marches, mostly those of Karl King.

I only taught band as a one-semester substitute for someone with a broken leg...
...so I don’t know crap about being a band director...
...but (as a marcher/observer) I always felt like - when choreographing old-school halftime shows - 6 to 5 looked better with triple-meter marches (6/8), and 8 to 5 looked better with duple-meter marches (¢).

Jperry1466 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:23 pm Wonderful old march. I've conducted it at the American tempo and marched to it in high school at a slower 108-110 when we and almost everyone else in Texas marched military 6-to-5 style in the 1960s. Of course, back then we marched mainly to the Trios of all those old marches, mostly those of Karl King.

At the slower tempo, I nodded off.

At the quicker tempo, I stayed awake through the end!!

From the perspective of the British Army (I'm a reservist Nursing Officer but have moonlighted in some bands...), both tempi are a bit slow! Marches are there to march to - the British Army (apart from the Light Infantry types), recognise a slow march at 60 bpm and a quick march at 120 bpm. Take a look at The Queens Birthday Parade (Trooping the Colour) where the troops will march past in both slow and quick time for example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DGNtgDV2R8

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:40 pm

lost wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:13 pm

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:29 pm I don't know if that trend continues, but it seems many modern band directors poo poo marches in general. Maybe they could read the scores and see how every aspect of playing an instrument can be taught through marches, particularly Sousa marches. Maybe they should hearken to the words of Frederick Fennell, if they even know who he is. But, I digress...

I've noticed this. Especially in the elitist northeast Boston! Marches are part of the history of wind bands. Nothing like starting your program off with a march, or ending with one as a nod to the past. I frequently butted the anti-march trend when I directed a community band. I also programmed this after I heard it performed by the all district band in our area. A delightful march! That trio...

The most fun that I ever had playing in a band concert was under Mr. Fennell‘s baton in 1979 at a concert which (after his gracious words) was concluded with a Fillmore march, which typically are the opposite of British marches, in that they are borderline circus marches (quick).
That performance was appropriately quick, and was recorded. It’s been put on YouTube by someone, and I’ve linked it here before…

And that Filmore march is at approx 160 which is actually Light Infantry pace for the British Army....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkA6xVf53Cw

I prefer this arrangement:

I don't recall hearing this march before, but I much prefer the faster, more sprightly tempo. The slower, more stately tempo seems to drag according to my inner metronome so much so that I actually selected 'Hate' as my third option in the poll. To be fair, I also selected 'Like' at the faster tempo.

It's just like a LImey to take something exciting then manage to put an audience to sleep with it.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:32 pm I only taught band as a one-semester substitute for someone with a broken leg...
...so I don’t know crap about being a band director...
...but (as a marcher/observer) I always felt like - when choreographing old-school halftime shows - 6 to 5 looked better with triple-meter marches (6/8), and 8 to 5 looked better with duple-meter marches (¢).

Can't disagree with that. 6/8 marches with 3 subdivisions per beat sound more comfortable at the slower 6 to 5 tempos than the duple meter marches. It's just what we did in Texas in the 60s and in the 70s when I started teaching. I stuck with it until marching band morphed into something currently called "the marching arts", whatever that is, with way too much choreography and commissioned music that no one is interested in. That's why the bleachers empty at halftime now for a concession stand break.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:40 pm

The most fun that I ever had playing in a band concert was under Mr. Fennell‘s baton in 1979 at a concert which (after his gracious words) was concluded with a Fillmore march, which typically are the opposite of British marches, in that they are borderline circus marches (quick).
That performance was appropriately quick, and was recorded.

I took a group of students to hear the Dallas Wind Symphony once performing an entire concert of marches and conducted by Fennell. As a march "enthusiast" (nut) I was in paradise the whole evening. In all my band concerts, competitions, etc. on the concert stage, the march was always the hardest thing I programmed. I loved conducting all the old warhorse marches.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:39 am It's just like a LImey to take something exciting then manage to put an audience to sleep with it.

Really?? a) it's a march being played by a military band at marching pace and b), as one of the token Brits here, I fully appreciate banter but would take some exception to stereotyping.... courtesy prevents me from responding in kind....

Conversely, the Band of the Grenadier Guards recorded an album titled Sousa Marches. They definitely have a different feel, if that makes sense, than a US Army or Marine band playing the same songs.