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All of their instruments play (which, I'm sure, is the lure - ie. no research required), but they're rarely the best-playing (in any particular instrument category or price range), and are often THE most expensive - which is rough on the taxpayers (and/
or rough on their own own equipment inventory, when they could have bought twice as much of some other well-made/nice-playing stuff - originating from the same continent/county).

I refer to band directors (who - by default - seem to always buy their stuff) as yama-yama men...

...They will politely look at alternatives, seem to be impressed, but then go pay double or triple anyway...

That happened a couple of decades ago at my high school. The band director and his protege had both, in successive generations, finally retired. The next time I was there, all of a sudden all of the King instruments that the school owned, from tubas, souzys, etc., all the way up through upper woodwinds, as well as all the proper low woodwinds from other venerable companies, were all gone, replaced by, you guessed it: Yammy. (sigh)

LOL...

I think through the sections of the orchestras with which I play (either per-service, or as a decades-long sub) and just cannot think of any section where the players are saying,
"Boy...If I ONLY had a..."

My high school in junior year was getting an few new instruments and my band director asked if he could have the students try out the possibilities that the district would allow him to choose. I got to try out a brand new YBB-321, King 2341, and Eastman EBB 534. I liked the Eastman and the King over the Yamaha. Guess what instrument was bought, the YBB-321. There was nothing wrong with it, its just as you said to expensive for what its purpose is. My Band director said that he recommended the 2341 to the district as the one to be bought because its the sound he liked the most from the section as the whole, and was recommended by the section leader (me) but was overstepped and overruled by the district. I think it comes down to a name thing, most band parents in my district associate Yamaha and good instruments together, so the district wants to appease those parents rather then serve the functionality of the band. This same thing almost happened with the Sousa replacement in my sophomore year, The Conn 20K was the resounding winner to us players and director but the district stepped in and was trying to force the Yamaha down the band directors throat. Only thing that convinced the district otherwise was the maintenance bills on the other three that were force on the school over the past 5-10 years.

There always seems to be no money for band or so much money that they can't find enough dumb ways to spend it!!

THIS:

Three Valves wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:17 pm There always seems to be no money for band or so much money that they can't find enough dumb ways to spend it!!

Well. Depends. I have bought used yamaha large bore trombones and bass trombones for a fantastic price quality ratio, also a used YEB 321 which is my marching horn, and as such very good.

My MW is better, no doubt, but 5 times more expensive, also used.

So yammies seem to offer good price for quality when bought used. But this is Europa, it might different in the US

marccromme wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:30 pmSo yammies seem to offer good price for quality when bought used. But this is Europa; it might different in the US.

VASTLY different!!! For one reason: most school districts think they have to purchase "new," no matter what. Considerations such as longetivity, durability, availability of used parts, overall sound and build quality, the cost-per-year of a good reputable used instrument at a significant discount to used, etc., are usually not considered. They only hear from having to put up with students and parents: "Eww - that old thing? What are my tax dollars paying for?" and so forth.

The up-until-thirty-years-ago "overhaul shop" is - pretty much - a thing of the past.

That being said, SO MANY of the old "overhaul shops" RUINED instruments (that previously had nothing really wrong with them, other than dents and worn lacquer) that it's actually a GOOD thing that those "overhaul shops" have disappeared.

In my high school, the BD had one YBB-321 and 3 King 2340s (two piece). Good players only used the Kings. We all avoided the Yamaha. We always wondered why that thing existed in the band room.

Then I got my own 186 and had a fourth valve, good intonation, and good sound. Revolutionary.

One band director in my province got busted for payola.
I wonder if the practice is widespread.

Shawn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:59 pm One band director in my province got busted for payola.
I wonder if the practice is widespread.

Yes, I fear that it is, and has been for[well...]ever...but - if purchasing agents and principals are in on it, too - who's going to tattle?

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:59 pm The up-until-thirty-years-ago "overhaul shop" is - pretty much - a thing of the past.
That being said, SO MANY of the old "overhaul shops" RUINED instruments (that previously had nothing really wrong with them, other than dents and worn lacquer) that it's actually a GOOD thing that those "overhaul shops" have disappeared.

Yep. After 15 years of teaching, I went back to my home town in 1988 to do another 18. There was a BBb Besson 3-valve compensating tuba that was bought for me to play in 1965 (pretty much state of the art back then). In 2001 we finally "retired" it after 2 "liquid" overhauls in 36 years. Out of the so-called overhaul shop it was a beautiful horn, but the valves were completely worn out (What? Kids don't oil valves?) and there were pinholes in the leadpipe and slides, so it played like a #3 wash tub.

The school wasn't willing to pay for a true restoration, so out it went. On the other hand, I later got them to buy some nice MIraphones. At my previous school around 1983, The Yamaha 641 was the best price (from our dealer) of any rotary horn, so I convinced them to upgrade to those from our old 3-valve 12J's that I had to beg them to buy some years earlier so we could have something in the program besides plastic Sousaphones.

During my time with the Red Onion Jazz Band that was a standard selection of ours, and one of my favorites.

(somehwat off-topic):

I've never understood band directors purchasing Miraphones for schools.

-Tall bells, meaning easy to knock over.
-relatively thin metal, so easy to dent.
-the stupid bell garlands which are a pain to fix and often rattle
-and fiddly rotor linkages which usually need tending to.

All this for a mere $10,000+.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:06 am (somehwat off-topic):

I've never understood band directors purchasing Miraphones for schools.

-Tall bells, meaning easy to knock over.
-relatively thin metal, so easy to dent.
-the stupid bell garlands which are a pain to fix and often rattle
-and fiddly rotor linkages which usually need tending to.

All this for a mere $10,000+.

I remember when I was in high school (early 1990s) toting around my personally-owned 186 in a hard case and showing up at various contests, “super ensembles”, or whatever and occasionally seeing other kids with beaten up school-owned 186s.

I would always wonder why the schools would buy these when I knew how poorly the Kings we had were treated (but held up) as opposed to what I knew at the age of 15/16 was a more delicate instrument.

When I went to college, the school had two BBb 186s and the 3/4 BBb Rudolf Meinl. The Mirafones were in good shape and the Rudy was nearly perfect. What a difference that filter makes in terms of responsibility.

Even the (mediocre Yamaha) sousaphones lasted pretty well at the collegiate level and they were seeing more use than high school.

On topic:

Given how manufacturing is sorting out, where should schools be looking to buy low brass from? Are the current USA domestic brands (really singular I guess) competitive in price and quality?

I think Yamaha wins a lot of business for 2 main reasons - They have a full line of instruments, not just brass, that has been pretty stable and free from corporate drama (unlike all of the American manufacturers), and the instruments are pretty consistent. Forget the fact that they're consistently mediocre, they're consistent. Yamaha has a pretty loyal following, and I'm sure it's due not in small part to the marketing pressure applied to band directors. I've owned a half dozen Yammies (trombones), and only really liked one of them. Most of the rest had kind of a one dimensional sound/feel.

On the trombone forum, some of the student line horns get a lot of positive attention, even from pros. Most of the attention is not because they are outstanding horns, but because they are solid and consistent. I can understand those properties appealing to band directors.

Over the course of 50+ years of brass making, their horns have improved, and they have grown past the asian cliche of just copying other stuff. "Vintage" Yamaha is the worst.The Xeno and Custom Z models are generally really fine instruments. The one Yammy trombone that I really liked was the 891z, a custom 508 bore, although I understand they make some fine 547s too.

I make it a point to never argue with Yama-devotees, or any fans of anything for that matter, even though I really don't agree with them. Just like religion and politics, everybody is entitled to a wrong opinion, and it's not my job to fix everybody's wrong ideas. I'm a bit of a Conn and Olds fan, and no one is likely to convince me otherwise.

How is the durability on the 1291 piston BBb tubas? I don't recommend rotary instruments of any kind for HS. But those 1291s play really well , seem to be pretty rugged and aren't really that much more expensive than the Yamaha 321. King 2341 would be my next choice. I really don't like Yamaha 3 series, with the exception of the YEP321... but I feel like there are cheaper options even for that.

cktuba wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:45 am How is the durability on the 1291 piston BBb tubas? I don't recommend rotary instruments of any kind for HS. But those 1291s play really well , seem to be pretty rugged and aren't really that much more expensive than the Yamaha 321. King 2341 would be my next choice. I really don't like Yamaha 3 series, with the exception of the YEP321... but I feel like there are cheaper options even for that.

I actually got to play on a 1291 in highschool. (Actually I got to choose between a 186 and the 1291 and I picked the 1291) The 1291 is a really nice tuba, although as the others on this thread said, it has a sort of bland sound, and the 5th valve was always very loud. I much prefer my Eastman EBB623.

Yamahas weren't always that expensive. I bought my 621 F tuba (which, I don't care a whit what anyone says, is an excellent little F tuba) for $3000 in 1991. It's still the only tuba I ever owned that made more money than it cost.

Of course, the same tuba is more than twice that now. But that isn't the only tuba that costs more than twice what it cost in 1991.

Rick "thinking that lifecycle cost analysis isn't in the wheelhouse of most band directors, but should be in their administrations" Denney