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Many larger bore horns have less intonation issues with slightly shallower mouthpieces. Discuss....

I will start: The 186 I bought seemed to have some very quirky pitch issues, and I thought there was something wrong with it. I started playing with different mouthpieces, and settled on a Blokepiece Solo. With that slightly shallower mouthpiece, I have no adult fingerings or major slide pulling. Perhaps that is why they cam from the factory with a slightly shallower than normal C4 mouthpiece. If you look at old Alexander mouthpieces, they are EXTREMELY shallow with a flat cup. YMMV

What's the throat diameter, on those old Alexander mouthpieces?

I've never noticed any effect on intonation, from a mouthpiece, but my theory in general is that we ascribe differences like that to volume or width because that's what we can see, not because that's what really makes the difference.

A 186 is large bore?

jtm wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:01 am A 186 is large bore?

LargER compared to most American horns.

' no fewer issues, but shallow cups make it easier to lip the pitch higher, when they are flat...and most extra-large-bore tubas' pitch issues are FLAT pitch issues.

Something else:
The larger the valveset bore size, the less DIFFERENCE in the qualities of the resonance a different-shaped mouthpiece cup makes.

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

jtm wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:01 am A 186 is large bore?

0.772" or 19.6mm
That's not small, but it's not that large.

With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:46 am

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:47 am With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

That is the ONE mouthpiece from Joe's line that I don't own - may have to correct that issue.

Thank God...
I'll be able to make up my in-arrears yacht payment.

Stryk wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:53 am

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:46 am

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

My 186 was fine with a C4, and just as fine with a SHII. Conn Helleberg (120S) too. Maybe I had a Bach 18 then too? I dunno. Pitch was fine with all of them.

On my 188, I settled on a Bach 7. That was based on timbre. Pitch was fine (darn near perfect) on all mouthpieces.

I’ve not noticed an mouthpiece really correct intonation issues of a tuba on its own. It might make certain parts of the register respond better or bring out overtones that aid in hearing the center of the pitch better. Like @bloke said, a smaller volume cup allows for the player to ride high if needed with less work.

Bore is such a tricky term anyhow. A Miraphone has about 8-10” more leadpipe than a typical York clone. I’d wager my 0.687 bore CC has a similar rate of taper to the end of the valves when compared to a 186/188.

It’s kinda like comparing the bore on a standard “American” style Bb trumpet to a rotary valve trumpet or a flugelhorn. Trumpet players would scoff at a flugelhorn having a 0.413 bore as compared to a 0.460 bore but not consider that the flugelhorn had 6” of pipe before the valves as compared to 18”.

Regardless, I don’t think there’s much a mouthpiece can influence in terms of intonation, but rather allows the player to alter the input buzz with improved ease.

The larger the valveset bore size, the less DIFFERENCE in the qualities of the resonance a different-shaped mouthpiece cup makes.

Not entirely true when you look at the Russian-made tubas. .830'' bore, and very mouthpiece sensitive when it relates to resonance and response. A Rotary valve tuba that loves deep funnel-shaped mouthpieces like an American tuba unlike it's German counterparts (also rotary) with slightly smaller bores which like shallow/flat cups for the best results. Certainly goes against the grain.

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:08 am

Stryk wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:53 am

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:46 am

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

BE825A6E-A613-4588-A7AC-04E54F25334E.jpeg

THAT is a twig, don't you know the difference?

It seems to me that (after I've repaired a busted St. Pete for a school...typically: carriage arm supports) when I play a St. Pete with anything from a super-wide/deep Holton 52 down to a Miraphone 23, those tubas (via bell shape) are going to offer a coarse grunting type of sound.

They "feel" great to blow though, because they are "open".

Grunting like a Lap Sousaphone? or Grunting like a 88mm panzer? I found more than on a couple occasions that the Yamaha Jim Self is an excellent choice on the Russian horns.

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:47 am With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

I don't have the brochure at hand... How does the Imperial compare to the Symphony?

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:08 am

Stryk wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:53 am

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:46 am

bloke "Now...Here's MORE stuff over which folks can argue. "

Around here folks can argue over a stick.

BE825A6E-A613-4588-A7AC-04E54F25334E.jpeg

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:11 pm

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:08 am

Stryk wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:53 am
Around here folks can argue over a stick.

BE825A6E-A613-4588-A7AC-04E54F25334E.jpeg

13934757_1239022392796850_1039702735574425771_n.jpg

He has limbs!

jtm wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:52 pm

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:47 am With my 186 CC, I'm using a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim - it is the perfect mouthpiece for this tuba, and it makes this tuba point-and-shoot. Larger mouthpieces (and smaller mouthpieces) do NOT do as well with response and intonation.

I don't have the brochure at hand... How does the Imperial compare to the Symphony?

It’s not as bowl shaped, as deep, or as voluminous as the Symphony. I think (IIRC), the Imperial, while not a funnel a la Helleberg, it is the most funnel-ish mp in the line-up.