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My story and then my problem/question

I played C tuba throughout undergrad and grad, as well as outside of school from 1989-2010. Somewhere around 2001 or so I bought an F tuba. I remember thinking the fingering switch would be a problem, but it really wasn't. I played certain rep on the F, and everything else on the C - the C being my primary instrument. Never really confused the 2 fingerings. Then I sold the F in around 2005. In 2010 I decided to sell the C, buy an F, and make F tuba my primary instrument. So, from 2010-2026, that is what I did. Then, last month, I bought a C with the intention of going back to making C my primary instrument and F for specific F rep. But the fingering transitions between the 2 tubas are not the same experience I had back the first time I tried to have 2 tubas.

The big difference is that back then, I was continuing with my primary tuba (the C) being my primary tuba. Now, I am relearning C fingerings and making the C my primary instrument. But unlike before, I am constantly messing up ON BOTH tubas now. A month ago I didn't even think about fingerings anymore - It was just automatic on F. Now I sound like a rookie on an instrument I was quite strong with. And of course being that I am relearning C, I am messing up on that too.

Any tips on making this smoother? I pretty much spend my days practicing - admittedly far more on the C (being that I am relearning fingerings and feel). By my way of thinking, it's a simple matter of just practicing the F a little more than I have in the past month. But if anybody has been in a similar situation, I'd like to hear. Ultimately, I'd love to be able to pick up either horn at any time and play any rep. But my mind just isn't making that switch. For now, I'd just be happy with 2 separate reps with 2 instruments. Obviously I understand patterns, and that certainly helps. But it's not everything.

That's a tough one, because you're playing and practicing so much.

What was your previous CC that you sold long ago?

All I can figure is that your current CC and F tubas are similar in style and size (to the extent that they can be). That is, they are both decent size piston tubas. I'm wondering that if you had some sort of physical or tactile difference (e.g., a rotary CC tuba) if things would be different.

Or to think of it another way, most CC tuba players that I can think of off the top of my head who play a piston CC tuba seem to play a rotary F tuba. I'm sure that's for sound (or maybe for greater number of options... Or... Back in the day it was the only option...), but it does seem to be a common configuration of one piston, one rotary tuba.

For me, it's my eyes-to-brain connection. This note sounds like THIS. And the rest of my body tells my brain what I'm using and it all sorts itself out. I've always wondered that, if we try to change these things as we age, maybe our minds and bodies need a little more help to decide the information. It's not a matter of ability, or commitment, or anything else. Just our brains get wired in a certain way, and after a certain age, they don't really "re-wire" anymore like they do at a few points when you're younger. So you need things to be "more different" to jumpstart the brain connection.

Just a theory. But it sounds like practice and time on the horn isn't the issue.

There's a particular (expensiveish - c. $25K, these days) model of BB-flat tuba that I was extremely impressed with (as a several decades C player) when the factory in Germany introduced it maybe 15 years ago or so. A very few short years ago, I was finally able to purchase a nice used one from a nice guy who sold it to me for money that I could afford to pay them.
Believing that I had been a fairly good (BB-flat) player in high school, I assumed that it wouldn't take me too long to become well-versed at reading and playing this BB-flat tuba.
Being an older person, it took me the better part of two and maybe three years to get to the point where I was - compared to reading and playing using a C instrument.
Even to this day, every once in awhile when I'm not zoned in mentally, I will think "low G" (or something) not looking at any sheet music and depress the fourth valve.

F tuba:
Everyone who has played mine (which I purchased new in 1982) agrees that it's the best F tuba they've ever played.
Currently, I'm not involved in any really active quintet, and early orchestral works - whereby F tuba is more appropriate - seem to be programmed less and less often. Further, at my age I don't have anything to prove as far as (seven people in the audience or so) solo works performance prowess...so even though it's an amazing instrument, it's mostly not getting played...YET I'm not ready to sell it.

In the early '80s and a few years beyond, I only owned that single F tuba - being that it is such an extraordinary instrument - and got by just fine, so it's going to be pretty difficult for me to forget how to look at sheet music and play the F tuba.

Ignoring everything above, which is filler:
If you play instruments built in different lengths regularly in your practice, you're eventually not going to have problems reading music and playing them.

bort2.0 wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 9:51 am All I can figure is that your current CC and F tubas are similar in style and size (to the extent that they can be). That is, they are both decent size piston tubas. I'm wondering that if you had some sort of physical or tactile difference (e.g., a rotary CC tuba) if things would be different.

Or to think of it another way, most CC tuba players that I can think of off the top of my head who play a piston CC tuba seem to play a rotary F tuba. I'm sure that's for sound (or maybe for greater number of options... Or... Back in the day it was the only option...), but it does seem to be a common configuration of one piston, one rotary tuba.

Yeah, I've thought of the psychological/physical differences. The C is an eastman 832 and the F is a Miraphone Petrushka. So both piston. But back then, it was the MW 2155 (piston) and the MW 45S (I think) and that was rotor. So a much different feel back then. But even now, the size is so different that it's obvious which one I'm holding. Although, surprisingly, the 2 tubas are very similar in weight. I make it a point to keep my left hand above the top bow and operate the 1st valve slide from that position on the F. And on the C I keep my hand on the inner bow near the pistons and operate the 1st slide from under that top bow. So, I hold the instruments differently. I listen to my sound and I hear the obvious tone differences.

But yeah, I think I just need to keep playing.

bloke wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 10:02 am
Ignoring everything above, which is filler:
If you play instruments built in different lengths regularly in your practice, you're eventually not going to have problems reading music and playing them.

Yeah, I think so too. But time keeps on ticking...

I am curious, because while I'm not nearly at the level of many (most?) musicians on here, I find the transition between BBb, CC, and Eb pretty seamless (I've never played F for more than about 5 minutes). It always seemed to take the same mental space as transposing and playing things in different keys or reading from C real Book when you have a Bb cornet or F mellophone or switching between concert treble and transposed treble etc. I like to do these kind of exercises but I have to admit I'm not terribly good at them.. especially modulations from flat to Sharp keys (oh how I struggled with the half step modulation from Eb to E).

I only had a CC for about 10 years but then started playing Sousaphone in a New Orleans style group and switched completely to BBb and Eb. When my son started on CC a few months ago, I picked it up and played through things for fun and realized I wasn't thinking CC fingerings but instead thinking like I was playing a on the BBb but the vocalist asked for it down a step. I'm probably just weird... I am also sure none of this is helpful to you.

Edit: I guess F from Eb would be equivalent to playing Bb trumpet parts on a C trumpet or brass band Bb bass on a CC tuba.

bloke wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 10:02 am Believing that I had been a fairly good (BB-flat) player in high school, I assumed that it wouldn't take me too long to become well-versed at reading and playing this BB-flat tuba.
Being an older person, it took me the better part of two and maybe three years to get to the point where I was - compared to reading and playing using a C instrument.

I've been playing BBb for a while now, it's been the same sort of thing. At rehearsal last week though (the springtime showtunes and pops stuff), for the first time in a while, I had a really easy time of sight reading everything. It made me think "hey, this is good" but also "this is how I played on CC like 10 years ago "

My brain is still wired in CC though, I was probably 17 when I started on CC.

Side note -- playing CC throughout college and BBb sousaphone at the same time... Zero issues there. I think physically, the sousaphone was just SO much different...

"different shape and config"...

same as with 4+2 F tuba and 3+1 E-flat tuba (for me).

4+1 F cimbasso...
I have to do just a little bit of thinking (at least, during the first rehearsal), when playing "low" A-flat and G.

I started on BBb in school, picked up F and CC and played those through college and my short-lived orchestral career, then switched back to BBb when I started playing sousaphone in a NOLA-style brass band. This definitely gave me a case of dyslexic fingers.

One technique that helped me a lot was to play anything that I happened to be practicing on both horns; something that Sam Pilafian used to refer to as "cross-training." Up an octave or down 2 octaves, playing the same thing on both horns helped me learn to rely less on muscle memory and more on visualising what the note was and what I wanted it to sound like.

We all need to be able to be as fluent in all keys and fingering patterns as we are in any of the others, as well as being able to read music and correctly imagine the sounds that the page indicates before creating the next sounds.

This sort of fluency in music (versus fluency in machine) greatly speeds up fluency in the machine.

Stefan A wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 11:04 am

bloke wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 10:02 am Ignoring everything above, which is filler:
If you play instruments built in different lengths regularly in your practice, you're eventually not going to have problems reading music and playing them.

Yeah, I think so too. But time keeps on ticking...

Let that ticking be your metronome, since its always wrong anyway when you have mastered practice time with that ticking metronome going...

you will have learned.

(the whole thread including my additional bit of gibberish could be summed up in that one word: "practice")

I'm with you on getting back on the pony with CC and F, especially with moving from a 5R configuration on my previous 186 and PT-10, to 4+1 on both my F and CC. I keep forgetting about my 5th way over there, especially with the 186. (I'm enjoying my newfound high range with the PT-15 so I'm kinda avoiding the low range).

All that, but when in doubt, I write in the fingerings, especially with L for the 5th valve. I write in fingerings on cello and always with those cryptic gang sign chord fingerings on guitar, so it works for me. Try it, it may help.

Now when I'm feeling good about my playing while at school, I'll run a Tyrell on the 1866CC, then the PT-15, then get out the Trashcan (186 BBb) for a bit of masochistic entertainment. It's even more fun (embarrassing) in front of your students.

I don't know if anyone has said this, but my friend, you are OLDER now. The brain has slowed down in its learning ability. Just ASK me. When I took up horn at 45, I was astonished how much longer it took me to get it "rote" than when I was in my 20s or even 30s. Just TRY it in your mid-70s, and you will realize that at your age now is just not so bad. Stick with it, and what others have said about different feel may be helpful. Put away the F and play only the CC for as long as it takes. My NStar is in its case while I learn the Hagen.

I have to eat my words above. I played something I know really well in BBb on my son's CC today and got a little finger tied in places. It took me a good half hour to settle into CC... even without the fingering issue I was struggling with centering. ...

dp wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:58 pm

Stefan A wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 11:04 am

bloke wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 10:02 am Ignoring everything above, which is filler:
If you play instruments built in different lengths regularly in your practice, you're eventually not going to have problems reading music and playing them.

Yeah, I think so too. But time keeps on ticking...

Let that ticking be your metronome, since its always wrong anyway when you have mastered practice time with that ticking metronome going...

you will have learned.

(the whole thread including my additional bit of gibberish could be summed up in that one word: "practice")

Your comments remind me of the note-reader musicians who want to take one lesson from jazz musician so they can learn "the trick" to it... Oh yeah, and they charge $100 to listen to little boys (and some really big boys) play Kopprasch, but they complain when they hire a jazz musician too teach them "the trick", they learn there is no trick, and the jazz musician wants $100 for a session - just like they do.

Reminds me of people who would come to me wanting to learn bluegrass fiddle. because I knew a few tunes and could just wail on them. But i was no bluegrass player and knew it. I had learned that there wasn't a trick to it.

To be honest, I still sometimes mess up fingerings or get mental lapses between the two, not often but sometimes and I have seen it happen to other pros. Once was at a recent audition--which wasn't very well ran (one of the fellow competitors who has taken over 50 auditions even let me know that he thought it was the worst ran). I got there in plenty of time to get to the group warm up room relax, before I was taken to a private warmup room. I get there and was informed the judges had a break, and no one could enter the building, and this break lasted quite a while, and it was decently chilly outside. I walk in and see they only were asking 3 excerpts from the incredibly long list, Prok 5, Meistersinger J-L, and Ride. With Meistersinger, they had asked the opening in the packet, so I prepared it on both horns, and was ready for if only J-L was asked to do it on F. Well I get to the main room and put my tubas down, and was told it was already time to get into my private warmup room and I had just taken my CC out and asked how much time until I was on deck, and was told minimum of 20 minutes, so I put my CC the practice room (which was big enough to hold 1 tuba and a person), and I went to the restroom very quickly and as I got back (we are talking maybe 2 minutes max), I was told that I would be on deck very shortly and I said I was told at least 20 minutes. So knowing this, I just did everything on CC, but mentally was in F tuba mode. I do Prok 5, then Meistersinger I slipped into F tuba fingerings. I literally put the horn on my lap and was taking the music off the stand, expecting a "thank you", but didn't get it and went to Ride.

Be willing to make mistakes as that will help the learning process.

------------------------

With that being said, when I was learning F (and fingerings for CC didn't come easy), having a piston and a rotor helped me. Pedagogically, I try to keep both horns totally separate from another until I could effectively sightread on both horns independently. There are some pieces that I have learned well on one horn and when I bring the other horn in, I get finger-tied, or pieces such as the Gregson that I have performed on 3 keys of tubas, I sometimes get into when reading (because I don't have time to actually practice all the music my students are supposed to).

However, once familiar, I do recommend students do pieces they learned on CC on F and vice versa to build the independence.

I have asked about a good cross training book. There are a couple that are designed (one is literally designed for ipad users and yet has a million typos and issues with playback files), but the Baer Scales are solid to really get the finger patterns down and help reading abilities. You can do the Bell Scales edition of it and either read the CC part (not as Bell intended) or read the F tuba part to get the fingers down. Both have benefits in my opinion.

Also, remember it is a learning process and can be slow, and as we age and get more set into a certain set up, we become a bit more inflexible because we are used to "this works". I do believe you can teach old dogs new tricks, it just, as with me, takes more patience.

I play 60% BBb and maybe 30% F and occasionally Eb and Euphonium.

In 2020 I started playing F again after a 20 years hiatus. Fingerings came back quickly but switching was an issue. 2 years ago I got myself an Eb tuba for curiosity and because I had a tempting opportunity.

So I am mainly a "Bb guy" but found a mental help for both F and Eb regaining orientation especially when outside the staves. If I struggle with reading with the F, I remind myself that the bass clef is an "F-clef" where the F is clearly marked by the clef ":". For the Eb I switch to treble clef reading plus "switching" the key/accidentals and keep oriented on the low Eb notation position so I still follow the right note name (which is messed up when thinking in treble clef).

To get more routine, I practice not too complicated sheet music where I am familiar with on BBb with all three tubas.

Over time I also found, that the different playing position feel of the instrument makes me switch reading correctly as the BBb is a large 4 valve, the F 6+2 and the Eb a 3+1 instrument.

Switching from F to Eb is still a challenge sometimes and especially BBb to CC (as I only tried CC tubas with sheet music for few hours in my total tuba playing time).

Being more stable switching from BBb to F or Eb also made switching back easier over time as it became more natural to me.

I started off with Bb trumpet in Bb treble clef, dropped that altogether to transition to BBb tuba in bass clef, dropped that and switched to F-tuba in BC, added CC-tuba and kept those parallel until I threw out the CC in favor of BBb.
The past years, I kept playing both, but really read music (and sightread music) on the BBb-tuba only.

A short while ago, someone wanted to pull me into the British Brass Band world, and I found out I just couldn´t do it in reasonable time.
- since it´s been 37 years, absolutely no muscle memory is left of those early and formative trumpet years.
- My mind seems basically wired to read bass clef and just switch between horns without conscious processes.

I like to think this works in terms of seeing a note, associating that with a pitch and just "feeling" how that pitch is produced on the horn in my lap.
In any way, I never observe myself thinking in terms of "dot location means pitch name means valve combination on XYZ-tuba".

Having dot locations suddenly apply to totally different pitches, in combination with misalignment between concert- and Bb pitch names, seems to be overwhelming my aging mind.

Hey Stefan,

I understand with the same size, same type valve brain challenge. My 186 with the small bell and the PT-15 are VERY close in size and feel, sometimes I have to look for shiny vs. raw.

I think the best thing, though, is that it really forces the brain to work. I can feel my brain working going between the two, and that is worth it to me.