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If you had to teach a life-long trombonist who doesn't really play valves something useful about playing valves, what would it be? For example - keep blowing, don't tongue every note. Or maybe use a single valve instead of a combination when possible.

If I were to give a valve player a bit of slide advice, it would probably be "concentrate on moving the slide, the tongue and the lips at the same time to avoid sounding like a trombone player".

I feel like I'm missing something about playing valves. I get stuck in a single gear on euph - I can't play soft, only loud. Sometimes certain partials won't speak easily.

Same thing with the slide. I tell students oftentimes to lead with the valves. Ghitalla would have students pound the valves, and this is important with lyrical playing. I tend to recommend the opposite in faster passages, depending on the player.

Also, pitch centering on the partials is probably the issue. It’s so much easier long term to play in tone, in tune, and in center on trombone.

I will take a stab at answering it in reverse... for me the biggest problem on trombone is reminding myself to blow right down the center of each note and use the giant tuning slide in front of my face instead of lipping things into tune.

Conversely a guy I play with had arm surgery and couldn't use the handslide so he borrowed my flugabone while in recovery. He had the hardest time trying to get the horn to put pitches where he wanted them to be instead of in the place they wanted to slot naturally. When you say sometimes certain partials won't speak easily.. I wonder if you are in the same boat. Each valve combo is a compromise and some partials are more out of tune than others.. you have to learn to work with the horn instead of against it. Take this with a grain of salt because I am not a teacher at all, but this was an exercise @russiantuba worked with my son and I think just started with my daughter as well. Try to find the actual center of each partial by doing pitch bends up and down and try to feel where it wants to sit naturally. Take note of how sharp or flat it is.

Once you have the feel try some Schwarmas - Play a starting pitch (e.g., concert F) and clearly slur down a half step with solid valve movement.On the second measure, bend the pitch down a half step, then bend it back up.Goal: The goal is to keep the bent note as centered and open as the original pitch. You can also do it up a half step.

The other thing is true slurs versus legato tonguing. I notice it is something that I've heard trombone players do a bit. Also aggressive versus soft valves gives you a very different feel.

Baritone horn / euphonium is an easy blow. It's a way easier blow than bass trombone, and valve trombone is an even easier blow. I suspect you might be working too hard.

I'd wager that you that if you back off some, you'll have a whole lot of success.

Playing bass trombone here at home (I've never been that good, and - the two or three times that I played bass trombone gigs - I had to work my tail off in order to do a B+ job) is a bunch of work.
To restate, I suspect you're working too much to play those other instruments.

Lessee...first position is open, second position is second valve, third position is first valve, fourth position is valves 1 and 2 (or 3 by itself), fifth position is valves 2 and 3, sixth position (or F trigger) is the fourth valve, and seventh position (or the F trigger plus second position) is valves 2 and 4.

Seriously, learning valve technique is the same as learning slide technique: scales, scales, more scales, and exercises, exercises, more exercises.

Trombonists try to move their slides quickly and precisely even when playing legato (unless they are playing a slide glissando as requested by the music), and learn to center pitches by positioning the slide. Valve players center pitches either using their embouchure, a tuning slide manipulation, or both. Valve players are taught to move the valves quickly, or at least not make the mistake of thinking that moving the valve slowly is a strategy for legato playing. The instrument will lose resonance when the valve is halfway and that is rarely a desirable effect.

Rick "embarrassingly bad slide technique" Denney

Rick is correct about what brass players are taught to do with valves.
I don't know what Mr Jacobs taught, but his successor observed him moving his pistons slowly when playing the tuba solo in Mahler 1 - with his lips vibrating through the half valve as a vocal portamento. Admittedly, this requires a really strong embouchure, but it's a technique and I'm thinking that Mr Jacobs successor's eyebrows went up and realized that that this approach was viable - at least in certain circumstances. Obviously if school children are taught this (age 10 through 24), they're going to do it all the time - instead of only when it might be appropriate or useful.
It's easier to pull off with pistons, and pretty tricky with rotors.

We are taught to blow through slurs with valves, but - truth be told (particularly with really large bore rotors) - there's a tiny bit of a release (relaxing into the next legato pitch, rather than forcing into it), though not enough for there to be a perceivable "wah-wah". This is more important with really large rotary valve section bore tubas then with any other brass - but (even with smaller bore valved brass instruments if we force slurs, and even if they feel really good to us) that's when the audience hears that click click click air noise coming out of our bells.

Great topic! As a trombone player I really had to let go of using legato tongue with legato (so using the valves now). I have a low tolerance for tuba's that have pitches that are all over the place. I am really not a fan of lipping things up and down.

Missing pitches in the mid range playing legato drives me crazy, it seems a lot harder to do on tuba. For instance going from open to 1+2 (concert Bb to C on EEb tuba).

Ahhh, let's start by annoying everyone - Lipping pitches is barbaric. Play right down the middle of the resonance, and use the slide to tune it. I probably actually do lip pitches on valves for intonation without being conscious of it.

Slide users want to slur across natural breaks between partials to avoid the wha-wah slop. For example, G up to Bb, you go 4 to 5 not 4 to 1. 4 to 1 gives a big nasty gliss, and it's farther to move. 4 to 5 goes across the break and it's close. Much cleaner sound, more like a valve user.

I assume that valve players are less concerned about that because the valve actuation creates its own sort of break. Bone players learn a soft tongue for non-break slurs. This may just turn into a bad habit when playing valves, not sure. I know I have to consciously keep the air moving through the valve changes, assuming again that's the right thing to do.

I tried to play a euph solo in brass quintet, and quickly realized that I only could play the "loud" gear. My euph is a Wessex Festivo, which seems like an ok instrument to me (without much to compare it it to) . Soft gear must require something very un-trombonistic. It's gotta be the difference in resistance between bone and euph. I seem to be able to get loud and soft on tuba, so I'm not sure exactly what's happening.

Also, when you move the slide, the trombone has to suck in or blow out a volume of air. When you push a valve, the air is already there inside the valve tubing. In practice it doesn't seem like it's easier to play loud glissing up than glissing down, but it seems like that's the way it should work.i never thought about that before.

bloke wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2026 8:44 am Rick is correct about what brass players are taught to do with valves.
I don't know what Mr Jacobs taught, but his successor observed him moving his pistons slowly when playing the tuba solo in Mahler 1 - with his lips vibrating through the half valve as a vocal portamento. Admittedly, this requires a really strong embouchure, but it's a technique and I'm thinking that Mr Jacobs successor's eyebrows went up and realized that that this approach was viable - at least in certain circumstances. Obviously if school children are taught this (age 10 through 24), they're going to do it all the time - instead of only when it might be appropriate or useful.
It's easier to pull off with pistons, and pretty tricky with rotors....

I was thinking about Jacobs when I wrote what I wrote, but the principle of "Do Not Break The Rules Before Learning Them" seemed to me appropriate.

Rick "still hearing Red Lehr do half-valve portamentos playing Dixieland jazz and not necessarily liking it much" Denney

Rick,
This person (who is reaching out) has a very strong instrumental music educational background.
I believe it's OK to mention some advanced techniques (as that's what I assume they're seeking, based on the level of instruction they've received with their major instrument).
Comparing jazz effects to half-step and whole-step orchestral subtle portamento effects (to come even closer to imitating a vocal legato) is to be (in my view) argumentative - via over-the-top analogizing (ie. sorta like me trolling you, yet it's you trolling me ).

All I'm referring to is our continuous journey towards (legato playing) achieving an aahaah as opposed to an ahh-ahh or an aah-haah"...and whatever subtle tricks might help us get there.

Hey, I'm not a "Mr. Jacobs sez" type of guy, but (as it was suggested to me in a lesson by yet another who is NOT particularly a "Mr. Jacobs sez" type of guy)...and (me) being the eternal skeptic...I tried it, and it works, but the vibration (across the whole step or half step or whatever) of the lips must remain strong/constant.
results (Mahler 1)... A trombonist (who's at least a couple of notches above me - as well as being able to SING wonderfully as well as perfectly in tune) complimented my Mahler 1 (and they really didn't need to walk over to me and do that). Admittedly, it was was with rotary valves (trickier to pull of this technique vs. pistons), but still...

I remember those old store giveaway paper cardboard music folders (with a picture of Fred Fennell sporting a flattop (young man) and all of his tips - one of which was "BANG THE VALVES DOWN !!!" OK...that works for many-many types of playing, but - not best for 100% of playing techniques and (also) he was a percussionist. (I played a concert under his direction with a very fine band...I'm not berating nor belittling him, but not every suggestion is best 100% of the time.)

Bassboner wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2026 7:07 pm ...

I feel like I'm missing something about playing valves. I get stuck in a single gear on euph - I can't play soft, only loud. Sometimes certain partials won't speak easily.

I'll pay more attention for this...

I wonder if the change in shape (maybe resulting in different resistance?) might be enough to cause this? Bracing is also a factor in the resonance within the metal. I am sure it is not wrong to treat it as a new instrument and work through things like long tones and attacks, or to see how different mouthpieces work.

Certainly being stuck in one gear (this is how loud i am playing until someone tells me different... and even then, i'll probably return here soon as they turn their back) has been most of my tuba playing life, so i'm surprised i've gotten as far as i have.

I might have more insight next week, as i promised to go the other way, and start learning trombone...

humBell wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 5:26 am I wonder if the change in shape (maybe resulting in different resistance?) might be enough to cause this? Bracing is also a factor in the resonance within the metal. I am sure it is not wrong to treat it as a new instrument and work through things like long tones and attacks, or to see how different mouthpieces work.

Yeah, I'd guess that it's the conical nature vs cylindrical, I just don't know what to do about it. I've been down the mouthpiece rabbit hole with this horn. I started with a bunch of bass bone mouthpieces which I had on hand, they didn't really do it, although some were fun. Then I got some more euph specific and I liked the DW SM 3, but landed on the Doug Elliot Euph 104 J9. I use DE XT 104 for tenor bone. I probably should go with a bigger rim, like a 106 or 108. I don't think the mouthpiece is the limiter here, I think it's maybe the squishy thing inside my head that's causing the trouble.

humBell wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 5:26 am Certainly being stuck in one gear (this is how loud i am playing until someone tells me different... and even then, i'll probably return here soon as they turn their back) has been most of my tuba playing life, so i'm surprised i've gotten as far as i have.

For me, it's more like I think I'm playing soft, but I'm really not. I was able to do it once, but I forgot how I managed it. It seems that gaining control over volume surrenders control over pitch. It might be as simple as pushing less air, but whatever it is, it's different from what you do on trombone. On bone, I have the whole range of dynamics, but on euph, it's just all the same gear.

humBell wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 5:26 am I might have more insight next week, as i promised to go the other way, and start learning trombone...

Maybe I can return the favor with some insight. If I play a lot of euph, my bone chops really suffer. It's a completely different approach, although I haven't taken it seriously enough to really characterize it well. I think I have an easier time on tuba than getting a great euph sound with good control. Maybe that's because I assume the tuba isn't as sophisticated and I'm even more clueless about it than I am about euph. Tuba playing seems to improve my bass bone chops, but destroys my tenor chops.

Bassboner wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2026 9:49 am...
I tried to play a euph solo in brass quintet, and quickly realized that I only could play the "loud" gear. My euph is a Wessex Festivo, which seems like an ok instrument to me (without much to compare it it to) . Soft gear must require something very un-trombonistic. It's gotta be the difference in resistance between bone and euph. I seem to be able to get loud and soft on tuba, so I'm not sure exactly what's happening.
...

I'm not sure what you describe has that much to do with the valves. Do you have the same problem with a valve trombone? I bet not.

I suspect it has to do with the different way trombones blow compared to euphoniums and tubas. The latter need "warm" air--lots of volume with very little push. I imaging the air falling into the instrument rather than being forced into it. My control mechanism is how much I hold back, not how much I push. But when I play trombone, it seems I need to really drill the air into the instrument to get a characteristic tone (to he extent that I do).

I'm so trained on playing conical instruments that I really struggle to even make sounds on a true contrabass trombone or cimbasso--perhaps the opposite problem to what you describe.

Rick "used to play a valve trombone in a swing band, but never in a lead role" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 8:29 am I'm not sure what you describe has that much to do with the valves. Do you have the same problem with a valve trombone? I bet not.

I'd guess you're mostly right, except that I have never seen a conical slide. I have a flugabone, but I treat that as a campfire instrument - mostly for goofing off, so I'm not too analytical about what happens there. It's kind of conical anyway. Never played a real valve trombone.

But I am also looking for valve tips, even if my main hangup right now is with the bore profile.

Rick Denney wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 8:29 am ...My control mechanism is how much I hold back, not how much I push. But when I play trombone, it seems I need to really drill the air into the instrument to get a characteristic tone (to he extent that I do).

Hmm, I'll give that a try. Thanks for the tip.

Rick Denney wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 8:29 am I'm so trained on playing conical instruments that I really struggle to even make sounds on a true contrabass trombone or cimbasso--perhaps the opposite problem to what you describe.

Rick "used to play a valve trombone in a swing band, but never in a lead role" Denney

Ooooh, valve bone in a big band. I'll bet that made you popular

I have kind of a love-hate thing going on with bass bone. My preferred ax is really tenor. All the bands around here have too many tbones and euphoniums and not enough tubas or bass bones, so I'm constantly getting sucked in that direction. Part of the problem may be that I'm thinking of the euph as a funny bass trombone.

They needed a third trombone player and I was willing to give it a try. I don’t think I did any harm.

Rick “they knew what I had to offer” Denney

I have a duo bore bass trombone slide (not only duo bore, but slide tuning... and it's a heavy slide yet it's a smooth slide.
It was made by Olds about 65 years ago, and - in the process of bringing a 50-year-old Yamaha bass trombone bell section back from the dead, I altered that Yamaha bell section to fit that Olds slide so that I would have a complete instrument (nearly a free bass trombone that plays pretty darn well).

The top tube is the bore of the Olds "Opera" model (.554") and the bottom tube is a little bit larger than the typical bass trombone bore (.564.") - just about the bore of one of those huge Reynolds Contempora bass trombones (..564" both top and bottom).

Nothing's going to make me not suck on bass trombone - other than thousands of hours of practice, but being a euphonium/tuba type player, I believe the duo bore helps me produce a nicer sound on the thing. (I don't take it out in public. I know the positions - and can play things, but I don't know the positions... I'm sure you know what I mean.

I like dual bore slides, I've had several - small and large bore. I think they are more efficient - blow like the top (small bore) , sound like the bottom (large bore). I also like TIS. I had an Olds S22 for a while. It didn't have a lot of finesse, but damn, would she bark.

Bass bone valves present an entirely different skill set to master. I've only learned enough to appreciate how difficult it is. On tenor in the target range, the partials are very close together and you don't have to go past 4th position much. On bass in the target range, the partials are far apart requiring more slide and/or the use of a valve or two. As you go lower on the slide and/or add valves, the positions get further apart. And if you use the slide plus two valves there's an endless set of combinations to get notes and especially to effect gliss-less slurs. But slurs down low require a huge amount of air. I'll never make it past being a middling bass boner because I got a late start on all of that (started playing bass bone at 50), and as you say, it requires a lot of practice. Cimbasso is soooo sexy, but I'll never own/need one of those.

Bassboner wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2026 7:01 am I like dual bore slides, I've had several - small and large bore. I think they are more efficient - blow like the top (small bore) , sound like the bottom (large bore). I also like TIS. I had an Olds S22 for a while. It didn't have a lot of finesse, but damn, would she bark.

Bass bone valves present an entirely different skill set to master. I've only learned enough to appreciate how difficult it is. On tenor in the target range, the partials are very close together and you don't have to go past 4th position much. On bass in the target range, the partials are far apart requiring more slide and/or the use of a valve or two. As you go lower on the slide and/or add valves, the positions get further apart. And if you use the slide plus two valves there's an endless set of combinations to get notes and especially to effect gliss-less slurs. But slurs down low require a huge amount of air. I'll never make it past being a middling bass boner because I got a late start on all of that (started playing bass bone at 50), and as you say, it requires a lot of practice. Cimbasso is soooo sexy, but I'll never own/need one of those.

The Blair Bollinger tuning, valves in F and FLAT G (not Gb), looks like a real world easy button. I have a dependent bass because that's what I bought 20 years ago but man do I wish I'd gone this route. The only question I have is if you lose double valve full slide low Bb, I like having that as an option to open pedal Bb.

I've listened to a few of his videos...wonderful playing...yet he seems to be tolerant of a tremendous amount of mechanical noise.

bloke wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2026 4:46 pm I've listened to a few of his videos...wonderful playing...yet he seems to be tolerant of a tremendous amount of mechanical noise.

Trombone version of a one man band, a guy who plays the guitar with a bass drum and cymbal on his back